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Old 02-08-2006, 10:57 PM   #1
Sina
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Icon1 Farangi or Irani?

I read an interview published by Fars, where they interviewed Derakhshan and discussed the concept of foreign coaches in our football and how successful they can realistically be. I am going to quote from the interview here and there but I will make my points along the line also.

Please put your inputs about this topic, which can be very controversial at times


Farangi or Irani?

or ?

The debate of quality of Foreign vs Iranian coaches is a never ending one. Afterall we are a country with a population of 70 million, but we can not ignore the rest of the world can we? On the other hand how could we over look some vatani coaches and their credentials? Are some of our club managers Khareji pasand or they do just follow along a trend that makes the fans happy and therefore their own job safe.

Hamid Derakhshan is one of the coaches who has obtained all his coaching licenses and he is still out of a coaching job having to look for answers. Certainly degrees say little when there is substantial experience behind a coach. In fact one could make the argument that many foreign coaches brought to Iran do have the international experience that many Iranians lack. Then why is that in Derakhshan's mind, 80 percent of the foreign coaches in Iranian leagues have failed to live up to all the hype?

Currently 4 teams in IPL do have the benefit of having foreign headcoaches Pas and Foolad are the notables, ranked in the top 5. In the case of Foolad their coach was fired this season after the team's poor results. We should not also forget that some first league teams do also use foreign coaches as their staff. The Shahid Ghandi team also fired their German coach this season after the team consistently delivered poor results...

So can the foreign coaches really deliver in IPL or the other leagues? The answer sure doesnt look promising I discussed. Then why do we still insist on hiring foreign coaches? Do our foreign coaches receive more favourable treatment and less scrutiny compared to domestic ones?

Fereydon Moeini the head of IFF's instructions committe believes that some coaches offer bogus documents in order to be hired. We can also not over look the job security of some IPL club managers and the fact that they are expected to deliver results at a shorter notice. Often they take a big burden off their back and hire a foreign coach so that they can have an escapegoat in case things went bad!

Other IPL managers might look more favourably toward foreign coaches just because the public and the fans do adore them more. In a society where there is not much profit or advertising exists for a given club, popular moves such as this sometimes becomes necessary for a club to undertake. In fact as Masoud Rezaeian reasoned, "we use foreign coaches because this is an accepted concept by the public".

Another disturbing fact has been offered by Mehdi Monajati whereas he claims that some foreign coaches manage to make their deals by using the help of a team's sponsor and later they pay much of their contract money to the sponsor as a pay off. Derakhshan however thinks that this is more to be blamed on dalals and the fact that some IPL managers are really not concerned about football but rather making profit out of it.

If we are willing to spends several hundred thousand dollars on a foreign coach we should also expect them to bring and create changes in our football something that in our minds some Irani coaches have often failed to do. With much of football fans following soccer with more knowledge than ever the IPL managers will soon find it difficult selling the concept of Khareji vs Irani to their fan bases

Sina

Thanks to Fars, Majid Jalali's Website
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Old 02-09-2006, 03:16 PM   #2
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Re: Farangi or Irani?

Good topic Sina jaan.

I am personally all for foreign coaches. Why?
Because most European coaches understand football, not only in theory, but also in practice.

Coaching certificates and training are necessary but practical experience is as necessary. This is not only the case with football but also pretty much any other field. If you graduate from college and apply for jobs, the top jobs are often offered to those with degree AND experience. Only entry level jobs are given to those with degree only. Now consider IPL the top job of football in Iran. IPL, which stands for Iranian Premier League, is trying really hard to be true pro league. So coaches who want to manage the IPL teams, should be good enough to raise the teams to next level.

But how can IPL rely on a coach who played amateur football in Iran all his life? So what he attended a few trainings and got certificates. You and I both know that trainings are certificates donít teach you everything. Itís a long and practical experience that helps a good coach to lead his team to success.

I believe next generation of Iranian coaches will be able to compete better with foreign coaches. Simply because of their practical experience. They are our current pro. Players and some even are world class players. Players such such as Azizi, Daie, Mahdavikia, Hashemian, and other players who have played in foreign competitive world class leagues, under world class coaches, and on the same team as world class players.

And final note, its not the result we should expect from foreign coaches, itís the concept of football and its over all improvement. You and I both agree that our football will not improve by results but rather than style of the game and better understanding. I believe only modern coaches can help us to get to that. And most Iranian coaches donít understand or practice modern coaching football.


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Last edited by aliirooni : 02-09-2006 at 03:19 PM.
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Old 02-09-2006, 03:33 PM   #3
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Re: Farangi or Irani?

Dear Ali

What you said is very logical but do you honestly think that all coaches who manage to get their jobs in IPL and leagues below that are experiences, modern, and up to date?

Theoretically you are right. Iranian coaches might not have as much experience comparing to a given foreign coach but then again for example do we know about the past experiences of a coach like Zelanko Ivancovich? You must admit that a good portion of foreign coaches that are utilized in Iran do not have the experience or the credentials that we might all adore.

I also dont agree with you that current teame melli players who have played abroad will necessarily make good coaches in the future. For example Khodadad Azizi. He is not disciplined But then again I really do not want get into that topic.

The point is that we do have some unemployed coaches in Iran who have to sit on the sidelines while some unknown foreign coaches from Croatia and elsewhere are hired to lead various teams. You might think these guys are up to date and know what they are doing. But when the IFF official says that some of these dudes fake their documents so that they can strike a deal then I dont believe we will get the necessary amount of experience for a given Iranian coach. (Afterall they all have to start from somewhere)

Bargh Shiraz with Zelanko has the worst offense scoring 0.5 goals a game! Now if an Iranian coach had those kind of stats then he would be long gone You bring and hire a foreign coach to rennovate your team not to just make it look more pleasing to some fans..
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Old 02-10-2006, 12:02 AM   #4
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Re: Farangi or Irani?

Sina jan,

Eventhough I am not too thrilled with the title, I am going to give it a shot. Why should we even ask Farangi or Irani? Why should it matter? Your case about Zelatko is valid. This is a big problem. Management of Bargh are showing their incompetence with hiring and keeping him just because he is Branko's brother. May be they thought they will have players in TM. I don't know. Whatever the reasoning this is a wrong direction for Bargh.

Now why should we turn this into Irani vs khareji? The problem is not Zelatko being khareji. The problem is his incompetence. We can ask: What procedure needs to be in place to hire coaches? How can the clubs choose a coach that can take their team to another level? Then we can discuss better, IMHO. I personally believe that if we put all of the factors on the paper, there will be only a few Iranian coaches like Jalali, Kazemi, and a few forgotten coaches like Derakhshan who do have the qualifications to at least get a chance. Then your question will be already answered and your concern about incompetent farangi coaches is also addressed. I think our clubs need much stronger coaches to take our soccer to another level. Majority of the current coaches of IPL, are not capable of that. We need better coaches. Now if there are Iranian coaches who are capable of making these changes, great. ( I doubt it though.) If not we do need to find the right coaches from outside Iran. The argument that we need to give the jobs to Irani coaches, before giving it to farangi coaches, simply because they are Iranian, doesn't hold much water IMO.
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Old 02-10-2006, 12:24 AM   #5
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Re: Farangi or Irani?

HoumanYZ Jan

What I was hinting at was that do we prefer any foreign coach over an Iranian with appropriate credentials? In other words is there a bias towards foreign coaches with lower expertise and unknown past experiences over Iranian coaches such as Derakhshan?

You are right. In default circumstances I should not be comparing the Irani and foreign coaches together. The point was that although many of us might believe that foreign coaches rejuivante our football and bring noticable changes formation and playing wise that our Irani coaches are uncapable of.

However what I was trying to say was that we got coaches like Derakhshan or even Jalali for sometime who had to sit home and make themselves busy with something while some IPL teams were struggling misreably with their foreign coaches.

The point is that many IPL teams might not be able to afford to bring a better coach and that might implicate the fact that some club managers use these foreign coaches (Such as Zelanko) as their escapegoat. You see what I am getting at? If we did have coaches such as Derakhshan or even Jalali coaching teams such as Bargh and Shahid Ghandi and had the teams played poorly on such a consistent basis then these coaches would be long gone...

I think our football society has a bias towards foreign coaches and that is the resource that some IPL managers tap into for their own good. At the end of the day that means people like Derakhshan will be left out. I am sure we got others like Derakhshan and he is not the lone case.

As for the title of the thread, well sorry if it does go good with your taste. I was trying to be simple and I did not want the thread to be the same as others eventhough the question had been asked before but I wanted to offer my own perspective on the issue.

Surely sometimes I could be wrong, but it is thru discussions that one can learn about other perspectives and maybe correct himself the next time. Thanks for giving it a shot. I appreciated it

Sina

Last edited by Sina : 02-10-2006 at 12:27 AM.
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Old 02-10-2006, 04:54 PM   #6
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Re: Farangi or Irani?

Sina jan,

I don't believe you were wrong. I was just trying to change the focus to what I think is the root of the problem. That is use of the scape goat, and refusing to take responsibility as you mentioned in your last reply. You see this is not a new phenomena. Before revolution, Shah started hinting at more use of Iranian experts than foreigners in our soceity. That consisted of Engineers, Doctors, ... It was very valid point at the time, since we had so many foreign Engineers and technicians in not so technical positions. He didn't last that long after his "in mooboorA fekr mikonan ki hastan" speech. I don't know what direction we would have taken under him. Some conspiracy theoricians even associate his fall to that speech.

After revolution, there was this huge passion for independence, which led us to move in the direction of denying our need to foreign expertese. Our schools stayed far behind, because we weren't willing to use expertese of foreign countries. We just wanted to be independent. Now, here is another wave of heading toward use of foreigners. Be it, engineers, Drs or soccer coaches.

So, the question I want to raise here is: Why do you think we keep going back and forth? It seems to me that questions like yours will take us to the other end of this pendulum once again. We might end up going for Iranian coaches again. And this time use Iranian coaches without credentials just because they are Iranians. I am suggesting finding a way to give just enough push to take this pendulum to the balance point in the middle.

When I was working in Iran, our company decided to use Iranian Alarm systems in high voltage substation protection panels. That product was only used because it was Iranian. It was a terrible product, yet we kept using it, which led to low quality for our job. They kept using those simply because of zad o band behind the scene between the head of two companies. Mind you, the CEO of the company we were working for was share holder of the company that built the alarm system. Had we refused to use that alarm system, the other company would be forced to improve the quality of their product. That way we would have used their much better quality product in the future. I suspect they are still using the same low quality systems even today. If you buy their product, whether it is good or bad, what motivates them to improve their products?

As long as we keep thinking in the line of addressing symptoms instead of root causes, IMHO we are gonna move back and forth on this pendulum. This is the reason I wrote what I wrote in my last post.

We need to demand managements to ask for credentials before hiring a coach. We need to ask them to make it public, and explain how they justified hiring that coach. This will make a difference. If we ask them why do you hire foreign coaches, then we are giving them room to avoid addressing the root cause of the problem. We are also giving them excuse to later say: Oh. I wanted to hire a good foreign coach, but you guys forced me to hire an Iranian coach. So, it's all our fault, media's fault or IFF's fault. Every one's but the manager who hired the coach. We need to give them freedom to choose whoever they want to choose. On the other hand, we need to demand the right procedure on making that choice. I hope you understand what I was trying to get at.

Keep up the good work buddy.
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Old 02-10-2006, 06:53 PM   #7
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Re: Farangi or Irani?

HoomanYZ Jan

Your post was nothing short of great. I do agree with what you said and my purpose was not to push the favouritism towards Iranian coaches rather I was saying what is the current business of some IPL managers.

I sure dont want to push for hiring Iranian coaches without the expertise but I would not want to see the ones with the expertise sidelined for the sake of having a foreigner who might not have the proper resume to be coaching a team...

As you said, a professional league must display clear cut plans and attitudes. When we are not even aware of the businesses and the economical revenues of these sort of teams then I can hardly call them anything but economical. The state run monopoly on teams will never let our IPL clubs to become professional in true means.

I myself am a moderate and I would love to stay in the middle. Not too liberal and not too conservative. The majority of Iranians however are extremists on either side and their views ultimately affect the path of football and many other things in our country.

I am all for a fair and square competition where individuals will be considered for a job based on their qualifications not for their gender, nationality, or connections. By revealing the dirty practices of some IPL managers and these monopolies, we could hope for a better future. I guess at the moment thats all you and I can do..
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Old 02-12-2006, 08:43 AM   #8
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Re: Farangi or Irani?

I see where this article is going and I'm inclined to agree. I think the problem Iranians have is that they do have bias towards foreign entities, whether that be a T.V. or a football coach. As Hooman said though, this should not lead to unfair hirings of incompetant Iranian coaches and the process of selection is the defining and determining factor.

As for the good players making good coaches point, there are more successful coaches who were either not players at all, or of a very limited career. Such examples are: Arsene Wenger, Jose Mourinho, Alex Ferguson, Sven-Goran Eriksson.
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Old 02-16-2006, 12:20 PM   #9
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Re: Farangi or Irani?

I also think that the nationality of a coach has NO IMPORTANCE. For coaching a team, a man needs a big knowledge of football and a good experience of psychology. I think in Iran we have misunderstood these points:

1. A FIFA Coaching Degree (even class A) does not mean a good coach. This means that many of our Iranian coaches, with many diplomas, have no idea about the psychology of the game or have no experience. They donít want to start with young levels or other divisions.
2. A good Club Coach is not necessarily a good National Team coach (and vice versa). This could be a topic for another discussion.
3. A good Foreigner coach may fail in Iran, because the conditions are not good or the cultures are different. A big name is not enough.

My conclusions:
1. We should not pay attention to the nationality, but to the competence.
2. Some of our coaches, like Derakhshan and Pyoos are taking to good road (Derakhshan with youth teams, Pyoos with sub-divisions). We should support them.
3. Some of the foreigners brought something new to our football. In the last 5 years, I can mention Ivic and Begovic. Importing the knowledge is not a shame, is wisdom.
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Old 02-22-2006, 03:36 PM   #10
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Re: Farangi or Irani?

Sina jaan I am for the best coach. I don't care if that coach is foreign or Iranian as long as he can produce. After all the bottom line in football is the wins and the losses, and it doesn't matter if you are foreign or irooni because a good or bad record is the same. I think that Euroean coaches have an edge and a better understanding of football overall because of the level of competition, but we shoudn't just exclusively look at European coaches. I say hire the most qualified person for the job.

Good topic bro.
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