Irankicks Football Talk
 

Go Back   Irankicks Football Talk > Irankicks.com Rules Read before posting > Coach's Corner
FAQ Members List Calendar Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 12-13-2017, 07:20 AM   #1
Ali_Europe
IK Captain
 
Ali_Europe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: switzerland
Age: 47
Posts: 3,558
Rep Power: 20Ali_Europe will become famous soon enough
Important: Iran and Russia Closer to Su-30 Deal

MOSCOW (Reuters) - Iranian Defence Minister Amir Hatami plans to visit Russia soon, the RIA news agency reported on Friday, citing a source at the Iranian defense ministry.
He is expected to hold talks with Russian Defence Minister Sergei Shoigu, RIA reported.
There are rumors that a major goal of the trip is to revive Su-30 negotiations. The original plan was to produce Su-30 in IRAN.
This would be very good news to improve IRAN's defence capacity, since Iran Airforce have suffered a lot cuz of sanctions.... and if the deal would be signed, it would be opening the doors for starting a professional aviation industry in IRAN..so as first country in middle east Iran would be able to produce instead of just buying and by each sanction have fighter jets to be grounded!
Iran defence minister is soon traveling to moscow for further talks








Last edited by Ali_Europe : 12-13-2017 at 07:51 AM.
Ali_Europe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2017, 03:25 PM   #2
Keano
IK Coach
 
Keano's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: LA, CA
Age: 42
Posts: 4,276
Rep Power: 20Keano has a spectacular aura aboutKeano has a spectacular aura aboutKeano has a spectacular aura about
Icon6 Re: Important: Iran and Russia Closer to Su-30 Deal

Damn, Russia will be making big $$$. I wonder how they compare to the likes of American F-22, F-35 etc. on a head-to-head basis.
__________________
I Love Girls!
Keano is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2017, 06:04 PM   #3
Ali_Europe
IK Captain
 
Ali_Europe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: switzerland
Age: 47
Posts: 3,558
Rep Power: 20Ali_Europe will become famous soon enough
Re: Important: Iran and Russia Closer to Su-30 Deal

Stealth is overrated(at least if you are the defending force)...newer radars in combination with good trained airforce pilots and modern SAMs can build a good defence shield....SU-30 matches Iran's current needs.. Iran Air force doesnt need to win an air battle over atlantic ocean...Iran Air force could benefit from a defence position, using smartly the landscape character + smart positioning of lot of mobile SAM and radar units + a decent number of solid fighter jets with well trained pilots(Iran is a large country with different landscapes and enemy forces are forced to fly long missions and have to return back home over long distances, means it is important to make an attacking enemy pilot face as many problems as possible: interceptors,SAMs and limited fuel over long distances) . SURE Iran Airforce doesnt have the power to beat USA or Russia in a hardcore air battle, but the good combination of a solid Airforce and ground defence forces and smart defence tactics can cause potential attackers to lose some 80-120 fighters..if the enemy knows that they might lose some 100 jets, they would not even think about any attack(such Defence Shield is possible if Iran would be well prepared).Russia was also ready to offer Iran SU-57 after year 2025, a Top jet which is equal and even better than F-35 but Iran is not ready to just spend huge amount of money and just buy a product and being dependent on Russians for years. Iran wants a technology transfer(thats Iran's main condition and if there wouldnt be an agreement Iran might switch to a chinese jet) production inside Iran is Iran's first priority.. Thats the reason for long talks cuz Russians wouldnt be ready to allow strategical technological secrets of Su-57 or even SU-35 get to foreign nations. So the SU-30 deal would be a compromise in therm of performance but a very wise decision, cuz lessons from past shows that “selling oil and just buy“ Strategy like Shah did in 1970's or today Saudis is not a smart long therm choice... SU-30 is solid fighter and is a good plattform fo Iran's own future domestic programs... sadly cuz of the sanctions Russia wouldnt be able to deliver before 2020....hopefully Iran wouldn't waste time by waiting and at least use the next 2 years for pilot training and building the facilities on the ground... so let hope the talks would deliver some good results...if not Iran must as soon as possible talk to Chinese aviation companies, cuz time is running and Airforce is right now Iran's weakest link in case of any foreign attack...last few years Iran improve the radars and SAM units, now Iran must focus on Airforce before it is to late(middle east is very unsafe and some foreign powers like USA really want to weaken Iran). Iran defence forces must be prepared and problems like the aging fleet must soon be solved, cuz today's Iran Airforce is just a flying museum....

Last edited by Ali_Europe : 12-13-2017 at 06:41 PM.
Ali_Europe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-14-2017, 03:35 PM   #4
Keano
IK Coach
 
Keano's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: LA, CA
Age: 42
Posts: 4,276
Rep Power: 20Keano has a spectacular aura aboutKeano has a spectacular aura aboutKeano has a spectacular aura about
Icon6 Re: Important: Iran and Russia Closer to Su-30 Deal

Oh wow interesting. Man you know so much details about these stuff. My knowledge of armies and military supplies is minimal!
__________________
I Love Girls!
Keano is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-14-2017, 05:09 PM   #5
Ali_Europe
IK Captain
 
Ali_Europe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: switzerland
Age: 47
Posts: 3,558
Rep Power: 20Ali_Europe will become famous soon enough
Re: Important: Iran and Russia Closer to Su-30 Deal

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keano View Post
Oh wow interesting. Man you know so much details about these stuff. My knowledge of armies and military supplies is minimal!
I think right now the defence issue is very important for Iran and Iranians, no matter if a person likes or dislikes the current political conditions in Iran. It is about Iran's long therm safety and strategical interessts in very critical times.. since some foreign powers like USA really want to destabilize any country which is not their puppet, every independent nation in middle east must be very carefull and prepared...

Specially since Wesley Clark and other people warned of new Pentagon plans for future middle east, defence stategies will be very important for countries like Iran(just need to see what CIA & MI-5 and Saudis did to countries like Lybia or Syria...

This map is what some Neocons want the middle east to look like:



In case of Iran following problems must be discussed.

1) step by step democratization: Dictatorships are easier to destabilize by enemies..more real demoracy unite a nation

2) improving the situation of minorities and create more regional federalism instead of ignoring local problems. It is important that minorities like Kurds, Azeris or Belutschis see that their problems or demands are not ignored.that would make it hard for USA or Israelis to create and fabricate any separatism inside aIran. CIA, Mossad and MI-5 have a long history to create tnsions inside a country

3) having a well organized army and a domestic defence industry which needs to be able to at least cover 70-80% of the weapons for the own armed forces...being too dependent on foreign countries in defence sector is a big risk

Last edited by Ali_Europe : 12-14-2017 at 05:26 PM.
Ali_Europe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-14-2017, 05:49 PM   #6
dariush-44
Hall of famer
 
dariush-44's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: SF City
Age: 13
Posts: 5,266
Rep Power: 0dariush-44 is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: Important: Iran and Russia Closer to Su-30 Deal

I have not followed closely enough, tho seeing the recent tensions, I'm afraid of what this crazy US administration has in store for the world. They never fail to surprise.

Building a coalition for war with Iran will only require Israel and Saudi Arabia apparantly: http://www.cnn.com/2017/12/14/politi...els/index.html
dariush-44 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2018, 07:46 AM   #7
Sherwin
Moderator
 
Sherwin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Las Vegas
Age: 36
Posts: 10,832
Rep Power: 27Sherwin has a spectacular aura aboutSherwin has a spectacular aura aboutSherwin has a spectacular aura about
Re: Important: Iran and Russia Closer to Su-30 Deal

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keano View Post
Damn, Russia will be making big $$$. I wonder how they compare to the likes of American F-22, F-35 etc. on a head-to-head basis.
That is a good question and I found this video for you. The thing is is like comparing apples to orange. Russian Iranian American here(didn't know I was part Russian until recently). So the F22 is on it's 5th generation and Lockheed Martin put a ton of money in R&D. In 1997, they built 195 F22's, at a cost of $350,000,000. Russian SU 35 was first developed in 98 but not used until the Russian Air show in 07. The F22 has a top speed of 1500 MPH/2414KPH and range is 1840mph. The SU 1491MPH/1940, range 1940. They both have their advantages and disadvnages. American F22 has a bit more fire power than the SU35 but in a dog fight, the SU35 is more manuverable

Ali Europe brought up some good points this will help Iran's air force but stealth is overrated. We also need to develope our air defenses, radar etc. I found this video that I thought was very interesting and that is where I got these stats from. Na zdrovie Slava Rassia, Iran Ypa! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VeqGKSv4jvM
__________________
Mia San Mia.

Last edited by Sherwin : 01-28-2018 at 07:50 AM.
Sherwin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-30-2018, 02:14 PM   #8
Ali_Europe
IK Captain
 
Ali_Europe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: switzerland
Age: 47
Posts: 3,558
Rep Power: 20Ali_Europe will become famous soon enough
Re: Important: Iran and Russia Closer to Su-30 Deal

Keano jan, well as I said before Stealth is a Little overrated..Sure stealth technology has its benefits (specially if an airforce wants to attack a foreign territory .. but Iran isnt a world power like USA, Russia, china which Needs their airforce to Project power outside their territories. Iran isn't also following any imperial agressive politics.. Iran's Airforce key duty is to defend IRAN's sky and supporting the airdefence Units like S-300 or Bavar on ground...
it is also important to explain what stealth Technology exactly does... it doesn't make a fighter jet disapear, it makes it harder to detect...the shape is designed to reduce the amount of radar waves which would be reflected back to radar stations or even absorb some of radar waves by using high tech materials and even Special paints to make the radar cross section smaller.


well, but in last few years radar Technology also improved a lot and newer softwares can even analyze the reflecting waves of different radars and even detect stealth jets...Russians air defence Units even made a smart trich by combination of different type of radars (Doppler radar and impulse radar, so each radar cover the weakness of the other system)... another Problem for stealth Technology is the extremly high maintainance costs (that's why USA ended F-22 Programm by less than 200 jets). In therm of air foce of future different nations follow different strategies..USA has invested alot in stealth cuz the major role of their airforce is to attacking foreing nations so the main goal was to make the attacking plane be harder to detect... russian follows a different strategy... Russians have started to develop a jet with stealth capability (SU-50) but at same time to Keep the cost under control, they also work hard on improve the radar systems and add stronger jammers to some of their conventional jets like Mi-35 or SU-35

Mig 35 radar for example has some almost unbelivable performance:
offers a wider range of operating frequencies, providing better resistance to electronic countermeasures (ECM)s, extended detection range The FGA-35 radar with initial stage performance of a 200 km detection range for 3m2 RCS target. Later detection range was raised up to 250 km. It can track up to 30 targets at any time, engaging up to 6 air targets at once, or 4 ground targets at once.

Su-35 radar is even almost 400 km range




So on both fields: stealth Technology and anti stealth measures a lot is going on and only future will prove which Technology would be the best answer... (specially if you look at huge debts of countries like USA, the question would also e how long such arm races can run)

But let be back to IRAN: Iran isn't USA or Russia or China and the major goal of IRAN isn't to join an arm race... IRAN's major goal is to protect IRAN's long therm strategical interessts and defend IRan's stability...

So no matter whyt type of government in long therm would ruling Iran, defence would be important...

But since Iran's major focus is defending and not conquering, Iran can use smart the benefits of being in a defence position:

- combination of airforce and air defence
- using smart the landscape and size of Iran in a defence doctrine
- make it as hard as possible for any attacking air force to enter Iranian sky

As I mentioned in my earlier post, this is possible with an airforce of some 250-350 modern fighters combined with a big number of different air defence and radar Units on ground...

in several of defence fields the domestic industry can cover the Needs (Shahab missiles, iranian rifles etc) but in aviation Technology we are still far behind the rest of world... and we can't Keep revers engineering 50 years old jets like F-5 to defend IRanain sky (it is like to start a race against a ferrari by driving a Peykan)

I agree with current iranian doctrine of domestic production to prevent dependence on foreign nations(Lessons from IRAN-Iraq war and sanctions). But for closing the gap a license production of a good fighter jet could be a game changer for Iran aviation techology... Sure Russians wouldn't share the secrets of their new stealth jet SU-50 with other nations. But even a modern none stealth jet like SU-30 could be a big advance and a big jump to improve both: Iran's defence capacities and IRAN's aviation industry

And it is also important that IRAN Needs to have several walls of sky defence: a good airforce combined with good connected air defence Units on them

in therm of air defnce Iran capacity has improved

few clips (ignore the propagnda parts, and observe the Systems)


iranian S-300 testing (IRIB clip)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GAid6Y8Ryfg

some clips of different Systems (foreign and domestic made)
the missiles which have a cold launch are the russian made S-300, the ones which goes by a hot launch are iranian made or older Sams
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s5URfInAMoA

Last edited by Ali_Europe : 01-30-2018 at 03:07 PM.
Ali_Europe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-30-2018, 04:49 PM   #9
Sherwin
Moderator
 
Sherwin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Las Vegas
Age: 36
Posts: 10,832
Rep Power: 27Sherwin has a spectacular aura aboutSherwin has a spectacular aura aboutSherwin has a spectacular aura about
Re: Important: Iran and Russia Closer to Su-30 Deal

Ali Europe jan, you are right a stealth fighter does not make it disappear, it makes it harder to detect with radar. Coming from a military background here is what I believe Iran should do. The SU 30 is a good quality plane, and the SU35 stacks up well with it's American counterpart, the F22. You also mentioned USAF, Russian AF, and Chinese AF. You are also correct on that, they need their AF to be massive and strong so they can flex their military muscle.

What Iran needs to do is defend it's skies but we need to have a good Army, Navy, and Air Force. We have a decent Army but the Navy and Air Force need work but it's not Iran's fault. The sanctions have set Iran's Navy and Air Force back. I think we need to do things like build up our air defense and you do not necessarily need planes for that. Developing our sonar/radar system is very important. This way we can detect an enemy plane and you can always use SAM's and Radar, to shoot down planes. That is how Vietnam were successful in neutralizing the mighty USAF. I think it would be wise to do a combination of asking help from the Russians, and also building planes on our own. We are NOT going to be USA, Russia or China for a long time but what we can do is build up our military defense and protect our skies.

I hope you are doing well, I have not spoken to you in years. I shall patiently wait for your reply. I like what you have to say, when it comes to these things. Did you do any type of military service in Iran or Switzerland by any chance? I am getting the vibe that you have some sort of military training.W If I got that wrong then my bad. Once again, I shall patiently wait for your reply, I wanted to give this some thought before I replied to you.
__________________
Mia San Mia.
Sherwin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2018, 08:02 AM   #10
Ali_Europe
IK Captain
 
Ali_Europe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: switzerland
Age: 47
Posts: 3,558
Rep Power: 20Ali_Europe will become famous soon enough
Icon10 Re: Important: Iran and Russia Closer to Su-30 Deal

Sherwin jan thanks and welcome back to IK

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sherwin View Post
Ali Europe jan, you are right a stealth fighter does not make it disappear, it makes it harder to detect with radar. Coming from a military background here is what I believe Iran should do. The SU 30 is a good quality plane, and the SU35 stacks up well with it's American counterpart, the F22. You also mentioned USAF, Russian AF, and Chinese AF. You are also correct on that, they need their AF to be massive and strong so they can flex their military muscle.
exactly.. specially some people tend to forget that Iranian airforce doesn't Need to face US-Airforce over Oman sea or international water...(of course Iran can never have an airforce which could survive an air war vs a superpower airforce like USA, countries like USA, russia etc own thousends of jets etc..) But in a defender position Iran has lot of benefits(own airforce has the support of domestic airdefence Units and ground rader, can any time land and renew weapons and fuel, knows the landscapes etc..) while a foreign airforce has by any attack over a large country like IRAN face few dangers at same time SAMs, intercepotors, fuel limitation since any dogfight or escaping SAMS cost even more fuel and to get and to find any important Target in IRAN any enemy Needs to fly quite long distances(Iran isn't Kuwait, Iran is a huge country with lot of mountains, Iran's nature and landscape is another positive factor for IRAN's armed forces ) .. So Iran doesn't necessary Need to spend its entire budget on buying huge number of jets or even buying expensive Stealth fighters.. but more to how use ist budget smart and effective.. Remind you Americans lost over Vietnam huge number of jets (although for sure US-Airforce was lot stronger than Vietnames Airforce).. it is similar to a fight between a bear and wolverine.. for sure the bear is stronger, but the wolverine act extremly aggressive and try to scare or even bite the bear so the bear just even wouldnt feel comfortable to attack him and focus on an easier meal..Iran would not face USA in a full scale war with nuclear weaons etc(such wars are only possible among super powers).. So the big danger for Iran is larger air attacks by USA or Israel to destroy important industrial facilities(power plants, reactors etc)... So Iran has to focus on how you can maximize the pain for an agressor, so the Aggressor would give up the idea cuz of potential big loses... that's what we can call a wolverin tactic

here a wolverine scares a cougar
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGvHQU71_Rk


although a lion is lot stronger than a Badger, it takes 6 lions to kill a badger(cuz animal smart aggressive behaviour)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NvlalDNxccw

[Black]the only big Problem is that cuz of Russia any contract between IRan with russia or China wouldn't be possible before 2020... so if IRAN is smart they would already now start to select a group of pilots and technicians to be send to Russia or China for training, so once the license production deal is signed, the rebuilding of airforce would move fast Forward....[Black]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sherwin View Post
What Iran needs to do is defend it's skies but we need to have a good Army, Navy, and Air Force. We have a decent Army but the Navy and Air Force need work but it's not Iran's fault. The sanctions have set Iran's Navy and Air Force back. I think we need to do things like build up our air defense and you do not necessarily need planes for that. Developing our sonar/radar system is very important. This way we can detect an enemy plane and you can always use SAM's and Radar, to shoot down planes. That is how Vietnam were successful in neutralizing the mighty USAF. I think it would be wise to do a combination of asking help from the Russians, and also building planes on our own. We are NOT going to be USA, Russia or China for a long time but what we can do is build up our military defense and protect our skies.
well, for sure IRAN can't follow the policy of Saudi Arabia or Shah by investing huge amount of money and just "buying" expensive weapons..As mentioned before strong dependence on foreign products, make you very vulnerable to Sanctions (suddenly entire fleet of jets could be grounded).. and Iran has other priorities like fighting poverty or improving the education...so not the entire budget can be spend on weapons.. At same time focusing only on one single force like air defence is risky... a succesfull defends Need a combined use of forces... I think Iran air defence and ground radars really improved a lot.. but I think a decent airforce is also needed... sure it doesn't Need to be a super expensive Airforce... But license production of a good fighter jet like SU-30 or Mig-35 could bring following benefits for IRAN a) air force would be a support to SAMs and Radars to a combined defence of IRAN's sky b) it would be a big push to modernize IRAN aviation industry, that's how chinese startet in 1960's by license production of russian production till they were step by step improved their capabilities to have own domestic designs... c) an iranian aviation industry would also be an important ecconomical gain for IRAN, lot of Young iranians from enginners to technicians would found new job offers and aviation indutrty would also create more demand for other industries(tire companies, metal industry, etc) d) Having modern aviation industry inside IRAN would also allow Iran even in case of future sanctions being able to overhaul, repair or even modernize the airforce during potential conflicts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sherwin View Post
I hope you are doing well, I have not spoken to you in years. I shall patiently wait for your reply. I like what you have to say, when it comes to these things.
Sherwin jan thanks for the Kind words, well long time not Hearing from IK Family..it is really great that Jashar restart IK(Big thanks to him for the great work) well, several years are gone since old times in IK.... getting older and having more Grey hairs

Last edited by Ali_Europe : 01-31-2018 at 08:32 AM.
Ali_Europe is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:06 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright @ 2007 Irankicks.com