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Important: Iran and Russia Closer to Su-30 Deal
MOSCOW (Reuters) - Iranian Defence Minister Amir Hatami plans to visit Russia soon, the RIA news agency reported on Friday, citing a source at the Iranian defense ministry.
He is expected to hold talks with Russian Defence Minister Sergei Shoigu, RIA reported. There are rumors that a major goal of the trip is to revive Su-30 negotiations. The original plan was to produce Su-30 in IRAN. This would be very good news to improve IRAN's defence capacity, since Iran Airforce have suffered a lot cuz of sanctions.... and if the deal would be signed, it would be opening the doors for starting a professional aviation industry in IRAN..so as first country in middle east Iran would be able to produce instead of just buying and by each sanction have fighter jets to be grounded! Iran defence minister is soon traveling to moscow for further talks ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
Re: Important: Iran and Russia Closer to Su-30 Deal
Damn, Russia will be making big $$$. I wonder how they compare to the likes of American F-22, F-35 etc. on a head-to-head basis.
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Re: Important: Iran and Russia Closer to Su-30 Deal
Stealth is overrated(at least if you are the defending force)...newer radars in combination with good trained airforce pilots and modern SAMs can build a good defence shield....SU-30 matches Iran's current needs.. Iran Air force doesnt need to win an air battle over atlantic ocean...Iran Air force could benefit from a defence position, using smartly the landscape character + smart positioning of lot of mobile SAM and radar units + a decent number of solid fighter jets with well trained pilots(Iran is a large country with different landscapes and enemy forces are forced to fly long missions and have to return back home over long distances, means it is important to make an attacking enemy pilot face as many problems as possible: interceptors,SAMs and limited fuel over long distances) . SURE Iran Airforce doesnt have the power to beat USA or Russia in a hardcore air battle, but the good combination of a solid Airforce and ground defence forces and smart defence tactics can cause potential attackers to lose some 80-120 fighters..if the enemy knows that they might lose some 100 jets, they would not even think about any attack(such Defence Shield is possible if Iran would be well prepared).Russia was also ready to offer Iran SU-57 after year 2025, a Top jet which is equal and even better than F-35 but Iran is not ready to just spend huge amount of money and just buy a product and being dependent on Russians for years. Iran wants a technology transfer(thats Iran's main condition and if there wouldnt be an agreement Iran might switch to a chinese jet) production inside Iran is Iran's first priority.. Thats the reason for long talks cuz Russians wouldnt be ready to allow strategical technological secrets of Su-57 or even SU-35 get to foreign nations. So the SU-30 deal would be a compromise in therm of performance but a very wise decision, cuz lessons from past shows that “selling oil and just buy“ Strategy like Shah did in 1970's or today Saudis is not a smart long therm choice... SU-30 is solid fighter and is a good plattform fo Iran's own future domestic programs... sadly cuz of the sanctions Russia wouldnt be able to deliver before 2020....hopefully Iran wouldn't waste time by waiting and at least use the next 2 years for pilot training and building the facilities on the ground... so let hope the talks would deliver some good results...if not Iran must as soon as possible talk to Chinese aviation companies, cuz time is running and Airforce is right now Iran's weakest link in case of any foreign attack...last few years Iran improve the radars and SAM units, now Iran must focus on Airforce before it is to late(middle east is very unsafe and some foreign powers like USA really want to weaken Iran). Iran defence forces must be prepared and problems like the aging fleet must soon be solved, cuz today's Iran Airforce is just a flying museum....
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Re: Important: Iran and Russia Closer to Su-30 Deal
Oh wow interesting. Man you know so much details about these stuff. My knowledge of armies and military supplies is minimal!
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Re: Important: Iran and Russia Closer to Su-30 Deal
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Specially since Wesley Clark and other people warned of new Pentagon plans for future middle east, defence stategies will be very important for countries like Iran(just need to see what CIA & MI-5 and Saudis did to countries like Lybia or Syria... This map is what some Neocons want the middle east to look like: ![]() In case of Iran following problems must be discussed. 1) step by step democratization: Dictatorships are easier to destabilize by enemies..more real demoracy unite a nation 2) improving the situation of minorities and create more regional federalism instead of ignoring local problems. It is important that minorities like Kurds, Azeris or Belutschis see that their problems or demands are not ignored.that would make it hard for USA or Israelis to create and fabricate any separatism inside aIran. CIA, Mossad and MI-5 have a long history to create tnsions inside a country 3) having a well organized army and a domestic defence industry which needs to be able to at least cover 70-80% of the weapons for the own armed forces...being too dependent on foreign countries in defence sector is a big risk |
Re: Important: Iran and Russia Closer to Su-30 Deal
I have not followed closely enough, tho seeing the recent tensions, I'm afraid of what this crazy US administration has in store for the world. They never fail to surprise.
Building a coalition for war with Iran will only require Israel and Saudi Arabia apparantly: http://www.cnn.com/2017/12/14/politi...els/index.html |
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the new strategy is since Lybia visible: a) sanctions and pressure on Independent nations b) supporting Separatist movements or fanatic groups for proxy wars (Kurdish separatism or the proxy war in Syria) c) using countries like Saudi Arabia to do the dirty work for them (like current situation in Yemen) d) or even direct air attacks by NATO or Israel to destroy important facilities or support their bodies on ground (Israeli airforce often attack Targets in Lebanon etc and US-Airforce also was close to get into Syria, but Russian intervention changed the game too fast in Syria) and since Isarael and Saudis also want a weaker IRAN, for IRAN a very well prepared defence doctrine is a must.. Even I myself am not a big fan of IRI, but in today current situation I think we have to support any thing which improve IRAN's defence capabilities or unity among Iranians (Different ethnic groups in Iran Need also to be good informed that USA/NATO might try to use them for creating separatism Problems) As I said before, IRAN's government must be forced by population to start with more democratization and reforms from inside. I even prefer a democratization it in slow and carefull steps, so USA/NATO/Israel wouldn't be able to create a chaos like in Syria..but it very important that some Kind of real democratization to be started to prevent tensions among IRANIANS or opening option for separatism or domestic conflicts. But of course improving the defence capacities is a must and should have the highest priority... A big mistake of IRI was to ignore army for years in favour of IRGC for decades, now they start to realize the importance of Air Force and NAVY quite late (since sanctions make it today hard to get fast Access to advanced weapons for airforce and NAVY). At least one good move of last decades was to create a strong IRAN's missile industry and improving the SAM and radar capacity (so purchasing of S-300 and Projects like Bavar and RAAD have really created a solid ground based defence). But the weakest links are today the airforce and Navy..specially the airforce will have a key role in combination with ground based SAMS to protect IRAN's sky from potential sudden wave of attacks! I agree with current head of defence forces that Saudi or Shah's Model of buying by spending billions is not a smart option(since you would be too dependent any by any sanctions your defence capability suffers a lot.. Therefore production inside Iran is a must... But as a first step for Access to Technology I think a license production of a solid 4th or 4.5 th Generation fighter would be a very good start. Iran seems to focus on SU-30MK (since Russians aren't ready to share with Technology Transfer on their Superfighter SU-57 or SU-35).. The best remaining options for IRAN would be SU-30 or MIG-35..I myself would prefer Mig-35 cuz Iranian technician have already experiences with Mig-29 and it would be easier to focus on a similar Plattform, also if IRAN would be ready to make some Investment a 3d vector thrust version of Mig-35 could be a huge benefit for IRAN. but to be honest I would be ok with SU-30 too(cuz it is solid and robust fighter jet and in combination with IRAN's SAM Units it would be a big improvement comparing to today flying Museum) But if Iran and Russia couldn't fnd an agreement than I would go for a licens production of a newer Chinese jet in a larger numbers at least 200-300 Units Here are some Pictures for those who aren't familiar with Military aviation SU 57 = 5th generation fighter (Russia would never agree to let any nation produce this fighter in license, it is the direct competitor of F-22 and for understandable strategical reasons no information of Technology of this fighter would be shared with Iran or other nations before 2030). Only India has been able to have Access to some Technologies, since there will be an Indian version with Indian avionics and weapons (Russians only agreed, since the huge costs made a Partner indispensable. But Russians might agree to just "sell" some 30-40 Units to IRAN after 2028 since their own airforce has the priority and they are already waiting (which Iran wouldn't agree, since for IRAN a production inside IRAN and acces to blueprints is a must) Also I have doubts if IRAN industry would right now be capable to produce this jet in a fast and efficient way.. ![]() SU-35 = 4.5 Generation fighter (also a superb fighter which is a competitor of F-35 or Eurofighter, also a Technology transfer and license production wouldn't be agreed by Russians, since this is currently their top fighter till SU-57 would join the service). So no option for IRAN ![]() So that means IRAN will have following remainig options with their PRO and CONS (And remember cuz of UN-Sanctions any solutiuon couldn't be deliverd or produced before 2020) SU-30: Solid, Robust fighter, very solid weapon Systems and radar. it is comparable to newest versions of F-18 and F-15 (which are in service in US-NAVY or Israelis airforce) PRO: Solid, very capable, multifunctional, a good solution for next 10 years, a good Plattform for future IRAN's upgrade or reverse engineering..Also IRAN could before starting the production buy or rent some 30-40 Units for the priority improving of current defence till some 140-160 Units would be finished inside IRAN CON: 4th Generation fighter, very conventional, so for next 10 years solid solution but if you use this Plattform for future own develeopments, any own creation on this platform would remain a 4th or max a 4.5 Generation fighter jet ![]() MIG-35: what I would have Chosen if possible..Robust solid 4.5 Generation light fighter PRO: very good radar and if you would be ready to invest versions with vector thrust would be possible.. a key Technology for improving dog fights capacities or Shorter take off distances Similarities to Mig-29 would make it for IRANIAN technicians easier ![]() And finally if there would not be possible to sign any contract with Russians, following Chinese solution could be an alternative Pro: solid weapons, cheap Price, easy to upgrade CON: 4th Generation ![]() |
Re: Important: Iran and Russia Closer to Su-30 Deal
Really! avoid the imperialist of USA and join alianiace with Russia! Because, they have bigger war planes than USA!
Dosteh mohtaram- our issues in Iran and most places inMiddle east is lack of education, destruction of our resources namely water, forests and wetlands to name a few. Wasting money on building defence is not going to help our farmers Kurdestan, and other areas. Who are we building our defense for USA, I don't think so KSA, I doubt it they just don't have enough ground troops to sustain a long term stuff. Russia is no better than USA my dear friend. For Iran to have a future they must stop this non sense system and take steps towards democracy so that they can start thinking about building the severely neglected infrastructure. |
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A) opposing militarism of USA, Nato, Israel B)keeping the huge wealth from oil and gas inside the region and prevent the money to disapear in western banks and stocks of western corporates C) more cooperation and trade among nations in the region and good trade relations with BRICS countries like Russia,China, India etc D) reforms and democratization inside Iran E) stronger defence capabilities to prevent foreign invasions or proxy wars And by the way spending money on building up a capable domestic defence industry would even help those poor farmers in Kurdestan, Khorasan, Balutchestan etc ..cuz without a strong defence you would allow CIA, Mossad and MI-5 to start with balkanization of Iran very soon...And I think we would agree poor people in Lybia or Afghanistan, Syria or Iraq dont live better after Nato-Invasions and proxy wars. Stability is the first step to create wealth and education. How can you fight poverty if you face foreign invasions, proxy wars, organized terror etc... Maybe Iran would even in future need to buy some hightech weapons to make it possible for Iran's armed forces to keep up to date, but the bbackbone and at least 80-85% of Iran's defence need must be produced inside Iran(Wars of past has proven than you are lost if you are strongly dependent on others) Doosze Aziz, lot of problems you mentioned correctly(lack of education, poverty, religious fanatism etc) are direct results of Western interventions in middle east... just for the record... Iran had in 1953, years before Spain or Portugal, a democratic govenment..who has destroy democracy in Iran by Operation Ajax? In Iraq Qasim wanted in early 60's more social Justice and better life conditions for poor people... who were the foreign planers of the 1963-64 regime changes in Iraq.. who send their troops in 1950's to egypt as Nasser nationalized Suez chamnel? Who founded Taliban in Afghanistan? Who organized all these wars, regime changes and invasions in middle east in last 100 years? I'm not a crazy concpiracy theorician..just wstch what former head of Nato, general Wesley Clark himself admits: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Kd6vR1J0_6A one last thing: there is a big difference between investing in a strong domestic defence industry and just buying weapons..domestic defence industry creates jobs and education inside Iran and is usefull for lot of other civilian sectors..satelite and communication technology, civilian aviation, IT or other industries like engine construction etc also benefit a lot by cooperation with domestic defence industry... |
Re: Important: Iran and Russia Closer to Su-30 Deal
And I want to add one last thing..The fact that I strongly criticize USA and often mention the importance of strong armed forces and a domestic defence industry doesnt mean that I would support the current government. Most older IK-Members like Jashar know very well that in past I often have criticized both Shah and IRI... strategical and geopolitical issuses are today too inmportant to be ignored, no matter what type of political ideology someone would support.. today middle east faces challenges that can destroy entire nations..so I think every honest Iranian, no matter if nationalist or real socialist or a libertarian or even a moderat religious would agree that we have to focus on Iran's and regions long therm strategical, ecconomical and stability interessts... right now after Afghanistan, Iraq, Lybia, Syria, Yemen etc the biggest dangers are very clear visible
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Re: Important: Iran and Russia Closer to Su-30 Deal
اقاى على عزيز
مشكل ايران امريكا انگليس و اين و ان نيست. مشكل تنبللى بى عرضگى مظلوم پسندى چاپلوسى اين مردم است. مردم ما خرافاتى و معتاد به خرافات و معتاد به هزار نوع مواد مخدره هستند. اين مردم محتاج هستند معلم داشته باشند محتاج پدر مادر هايى با شرافت و با علم هستند. اقاى محترم از چه ما ميخواهيم دفاع بكنيم ؟ نفت؟ ايكاش نفت نداشتيم اما يك ذره همت داشتيم. شوروى با ايران قرارداد جمع و دفن زباله هاى اتمى دارد كه عملا ترتيب جد و ابادمان را ميدهد ايا داشتن انرژى اتمى برا ايرانى كه بسيارى ديگر منابع بدون درد سر تر دارد جايز است؟ نه اقا. جاى تعريف نيست اما در مساثل مربوط به انرژى بطور عام و برق و خورشيدى ايا با دو تا جنگنده كه از شوروى بخريم جلوى انگليس و امريكا ميتوانيم بايستيم. The utopian mentality is far from reality though in a democratic society there is no issue with having such dreams, howeve it is premature. Have been to Russia years ago, and there was no true happiness Ali agha. لطفا توجه كنيد: وقتى حقيقت را نتوانى بگويى ازادى حقيقت نيست بايد اينكه ما مظلوم واقع شديم و در نتيجه ما را چاپيدند و نگذاشتندوو را كنار گذاشت و با قدرت قدرت علم تحصيلات جلو رفت شرف داشت. مطمن باشيد امريكا حق سوثد فنلاند وو را نميتواند بخورد و موشكى هم نه دارند نه ميخواهد بخرند اما روشنفكر تا بخواهيد دارند و اين مهم ترين اسلحه است اسلحه دانش اسلحه علم When our system infrastructure is aged beyond repairs (electrical grid is unsafe and not functional 40% of the time) our wetlands have disappeared, lack of proper water saving measures has led our resources dangerously low where it is estimated we would be facing drinking water shortage within 10 years and irrigation sooner- we should be thinking seriously about our future and what we need to focus on. |
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Ali Europe brought up some good points this will help Iran's air force but stealth is overrated. We also need to develope our air defenses, radar etc. I found this video that I thought was very interesting and that is where I got these stats from. Na zdrovie Slava Rassia, Iran Ypa! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VeqGKSv4jvM |
Re: Important: Iran and Russia Closer to Su-30 Deal
Keano jan, well as I said before Stealth is a Little overrated..Sure stealth technology has its benefits (specially if an airforce wants to attack a foreign territory .. but Iran isnt a world power like USA, Russia, china which Needs their airforce to Project power outside their territories. Iran isn't also following any imperial agressive politics.. Iran's Airforce key duty is to defend IRAN's sky and supporting the airdefence Units like S-300 or Bavar on ground...
it is also important to explain what stealth Technology exactly does... it doesn't make a fighter jet disapear, it makes it harder to detect...the shape is designed to reduce the amount of radar waves which would be reflected back to radar stations or even absorb some of radar waves by using high tech materials and even Special paints to make the radar cross section smaller. ![]() well, but in last few years radar Technology also improved a lot and newer softwares can even analyze the reflecting waves of different radars and even detect stealth jets...Russians air defence Units even made a smart trich by combination of different type of radars (Doppler radar and impulse radar, so each radar cover the weakness of the other system)... another Problem for stealth Technology is the extremly high maintainance costs (that's why USA ended F-22 Programm by less than 200 jets). In therm of air foce of future different nations follow different strategies..USA has invested alot in stealth cuz the major role of their airforce is to attacking foreing nations so the main goal was to make the attacking plane be harder to detect... russian follows a different strategy... Russians have started to develop a jet with stealth capability (SU-50) but at same time to Keep the cost under control, they also work hard on improve the radar systems and add stronger jammers to some of their conventional jets like Mi-35 or SU-35 Mig 35 radar for example has some almost unbelivable performance: offers a wider range of operating frequencies, providing better resistance to electronic countermeasures (ECM)s, extended detection range The FGA-35 radar with initial stage performance of a 200 km detection range for 3m2 RCS target. Later detection range was raised up to 250 km. It can track up to 30 targets at any time, engaging up to 6 air targets at once, or 4 ground targets at once. Su-35 radar is even almost 400 km range ![]() So on both fields: stealth Technology and anti stealth measures a lot is going on and only future will prove which Technology would be the best answer... (specially if you look at huge debts of countries like USA, the question would also e how long such arm races can run) But let be back to IRAN: Iran isn't USA or Russia or China and the major goal of IRAN isn't to join an arm race... IRAN's major goal is to protect IRAN's long therm strategical interessts and defend IRan's stability... So no matter whyt type of government in long therm would ruling Iran, defence would be important... But since Iran's major focus is defending and not conquering, Iran can use smart the benefits of being in a defence position: - combination of airforce and air defence - using smart the landscape and size of Iran in a defence doctrine - make it as hard as possible for any attacking air force to enter Iranian sky As I mentioned in my earlier post, this is possible with an airforce of some 250-350 modern fighters combined with a big number of different air defence and radar Units on ground... in several of defence fields the domestic industry can cover the Needs (Shahab missiles, iranian rifles etc) but in aviation Technology we are still far behind the rest of world... and we can't Keep revers engineering 50 years old jets like F-5 to defend IRanain sky (it is like to start a race against a ferrari by driving a Peykan) I agree with current iranian doctrine of domestic production to prevent dependence on foreign nations(Lessons from IRAN-Iraq war and sanctions). But for closing the gap a license production of a good fighter jet could be a game changer for Iran aviation techology... Sure Russians wouldn't share the secrets of their new stealth jet SU-50 with other nations. But even a modern none stealth jet like SU-30 could be a big advance and a big jump to improve both: Iran's defence capacities and IRAN's aviation industry And it is also important that IRAN Needs to have several walls of sky defence: a good airforce combined with good connected air defence Units on them in therm of air defnce Iran capacity has improved few clips (ignore the propagnda parts, and observe the Systems) iranian S-300 testing (IRIB clip) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GAid6Y8Ryfg some clips of different Systems (foreign and domestic made) the missiles which have a cold launch are the russian made S-300, the ones which goes by a hot launch are iranian made or older Sams https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s5URfInAMoA |
Re: Important: Iran and Russia Closer to Su-30 Deal
Ali Europe jan, you are right a stealth fighter does not make it disappear, it makes it harder to detect with radar. Coming from a military background here is what I believe Iran should do. The SU 30 is a good quality plane, and the SU35 stacks up well with it's American counterpart, the F22. You also mentioned USAF, Russian AF, and Chinese AF. You are also correct on that, they need their AF to be massive and strong so they can flex their military muscle.
What Iran needs to do is defend it's skies but we need to have a good Army, Navy, and Air Force. We have a decent Army but the Navy and Air Force need work but it's not Iran's fault. The sanctions have set Iran's Navy and Air Force back. I think we need to do things like build up our air defense and you do not necessarily need planes for that. Developing our sonar/radar system is very important. This way we can detect an enemy plane and you can always use SAM's and Radar, to shoot down planes. That is how Vietnam were successful in neutralizing the mighty USAF. I think it would be wise to do a combination of asking help from the Russians, and also building planes on our own. We are NOT going to be USA, Russia or China for a long time but what we can do is build up our military defense and protect our skies. I hope you are doing well, I have not spoken to you in years. I shall patiently wait for your reply. I like what you have to say, when it comes to these things. Did you do any type of military service in Iran or Switzerland by any chance? I am getting the vibe that you have some sort of military training.W If I got that wrong then my bad. Once again, I shall patiently wait for your reply, I wanted to give this some thought before I replied to you. |
Re: Important: Iran and Russia Closer to Su-30 Deal
Sherwin jan thanks and welcome back to IK
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here a wolverine scares a cougar https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGvHQU71_Rk although a lion is lot stronger than a Badger, it takes 6 lions to kill a badger(cuz animal smart aggressive behaviour) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NvlalDNxccw [Black]the only big Problem is that cuz of Russia any contract between IRan with russia or China wouldn't be possible before 2020... so if IRAN is smart they would already now start to select a group of pilots and technicians to be send to Russia or China for training, so once the license production deal is signed, the rebuilding of airforce would move fast Forward....[Black] Quote:
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Re: Important: Iran and Russia Closer to Su-30 Deal
Well said Ali Europe jan and I love your Bear and Wolverine analogy. The Wolverine is small but a Wolverine is super aggresssive and can kill a predator 5 to 6 times it's size. On Iran's topography, that gives us a huge advantage, we are not Kuwait or Saudi Arabia, where it is just a flat desert, Iran is very mountainous, especially by where some of my family are, in the East Azerbaijan region. I also realize that our contract with Russia will not go into affect until 2020 so we better start developing our air defenses. I am glad you also mentioned Vietnam. How were the Vietcong able to shoot down many US Planes, it is estimated Americans lost one out of every 9 planes. It is simple they used SAMS Surface to Air missiles. and Iran can easily develop those.
Like in math or science, there is more than one variable factor. It needs to be a combination of us developing our air and naval defenses, plus getting some outside help from Russia. However, as John Wooden of UCLA once said, "A man who fails to prepare is preparing to fail." We cannot afford to sit on our rear end and do NOTHING for the next two years, until Russia comes to the rescue. We need to develop our air defenses and then if you want to get some more sophisticated planes from Russia, go ahead, at least you are not putting all of your eggs in one basket. I also agree that the Shah's strategy of buying expensive weapons, planes etc is not the right strategy Iran should take. We should build up our Air and Naval defenses. We will never be USA, Russia or China because we do not have the same resources, as the big boys. but the good news is USA is not planning on attacking Iran, anytime soon. They are not going to fly over our air spaces and start bombing us. They also are trying to somewhat normalize relations between Russia and they know that Slava Russians, like Putin, and the rest in the Russian Federation will not be happy about that. Finally, it is great to be back home with FAMILY. There is no place like home I have been to ISP and that is cool do not get me wrong but this is different. IK is a very special place to me and I know you, along with others feel the same way. I have said this before and I will say it again, "Jashar jan, damet garm aziz," he took it on his own accord to save IK. Perjad jan, thank you for accepting Jashar jan's proposal. I feel like right now we are having a family reunion, like when I visit family in Germany or Russia. I am very happy right now, 2009 was a tough year because not only I had to transition from civilian to military life, I had to say goodbye to my family. That was harder than boot camp and officer candidacy school because that hit me like a dagger in the heart. I hope you and everyone here are doing well. What I love about IK is family will not agree with everything but we even disagree with CLASS and DIGNITY. Other places, insults, ad homenim attacks, it is uncouth and a bad atmosphere. The only way we can grow as family and LEARN from one another and our unique experiences is if we take the time to LISTEN. I am relieved you are doing well dear old friend and thank you for your kind words, everyone. If there is anything I can do for anyone here, do not hesitate to PM or if you just want to chat it up about Team e Melli. Jashar jan damet garm, PERFECT TIMING. |
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I served my country, for those who would like to criticize, if you feel that strongly, put your money where your mouth is and join the armed forces. There are those who just talk and there are those who do something about it. I know exactly where you are coming from and I will support you. If anyone gives you or anyone a hard time for a difference of opinion, you know me I cannot stay silent. No matter what your political or religious beliefs are, like you said, we need to think about the long run. Afghanistan, Iraq, Lybia, Syria, Yemen are visible threats, that are all near by us. When you attack someone, you are fighting a losing battle. If you lose, you go home but if they lose, they lose their country. Take a look at big USA and Russia, what happened when they went into Afghanistan? They got their rear ends handed to them, same thing when USA went to Vietnam. Also, same thing when Napoleon and Hitler decided it was a brilliant idea to attack Mother Russia on her own soil. Never underestimate the will of your enemy, if you do that, you already lost. After the Russians underestimated the Afghans, a Field Marshal said, "In life, there are thee things you must fear, a Tiger's paw, a snakes venom, and an Afghan's vengeance." Too smart too late my friend. The field Marshal tried to warn GWB and said, 'If you send boots to the ground, prepare to build a lot of coffins." |
Re: Important: Iran and Russia Closer to Su-30 Deal
Wow you guys are knowledgeable when it comes to military. Whereas mine is very limited. Thank you for the detailed exlanation Ali jaan! :up::up:
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