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Ali_Europe 12-13-2017 07:20 AM

Important: Iran and Russia Closer to Su-30 Deal
 
MOSCOW (Reuters) - Iranian Defence Minister Amir Hatami plans to visit Russia soon, the RIA news agency reported on Friday, citing a source at the Iranian defense ministry.
He is expected to hold talks with Russian Defence Minister Sergei Shoigu, RIA reported.
There are rumors that a major goal of the trip is to revive Su-30 negotiations. The original plan was to produce Su-30 in IRAN.
This would be very good news to improve IRAN's defence capacity, since Iran Airforce have suffered a lot cuz of sanctions.... and if the deal would be signed, it would be opening the doors for starting a professional aviation industry in IRAN..so as first country in middle east Iran would be able to produce instead of just buying and by each sanction have fighter jets to be grounded!
Iran defence minister is soon traveling to moscow for further talks








Keano 12-13-2017 03:25 PM

Re: Important: Iran and Russia Closer to Su-30 Deal
 
Damn, Russia will be making big $$$. I wonder how they compare to the likes of American F-22, F-35 etc. on a head-to-head basis.

Ali_Europe 12-13-2017 06:04 PM

Re: Important: Iran and Russia Closer to Su-30 Deal
 
Stealth is overrated(at least if you are the defending force)...newer radars in combination with good trained airforce pilots and modern SAMs can build a good defence shield....SU-30 matches Iran's current needs.. Iran Air force doesnt need to win an air battle over atlantic ocean...Iran Air force could benefit from a defence position, using smartly the landscape character + smart positioning of lot of mobile SAM and radar units + a decent number of solid fighter jets with well trained pilots(Iran is a large country with different landscapes and enemy forces are forced to fly long missions and have to return back home over long distances, means it is important to make an attacking enemy pilot face as many problems as possible: interceptors,SAMs and limited fuel over long distances) . SURE Iran Airforce doesnt have the power to beat USA or Russia in a hardcore air battle, but the good combination of a solid Airforce and ground defence forces and smart defence tactics can cause potential attackers to lose some 80-120 fighters..if the enemy knows that they might lose some 100 jets, they would not even think about any attack(such Defence Shield is possible if Iran would be well prepared).Russia was also ready to offer Iran SU-57 after year 2025, a Top jet which is equal and even better than F-35 but Iran is not ready to just spend huge amount of money and just buy a product and being dependent on Russians for years. Iran wants a technology transfer(thats Iran's main condition and if there wouldnt be an agreement Iran might switch to a chinese jet) production inside Iran is Iran's first priority.. Thats the reason for long talks cuz Russians wouldnt be ready to allow strategical technological secrets of Su-57 or even SU-35 get to foreign nations. So the SU-30 deal would be a compromise in therm of performance but a very wise decision, cuz lessons from past shows that “selling oil and just buy“ Strategy like Shah did in 1970's or today Saudis is not a smart long therm choice... SU-30 is solid fighter and is a good plattform fo Iran's own future domestic programs... sadly cuz of the sanctions Russia wouldnt be able to deliver before 2020....hopefully Iran wouldn't waste time by waiting and at least use the next 2 years for pilot training and building the facilities on the ground... so let hope the talks would deliver some good results...if not Iran must as soon as possible talk to Chinese aviation companies, cuz time is running and Airforce is right now Iran's weakest link in case of any foreign attack...last few years Iran improve the radars and SAM units, now Iran must focus on Airforce before it is to late(middle east is very unsafe and some foreign powers like USA really want to weaken Iran). Iran defence forces must be prepared and problems like the aging fleet must soon be solved, cuz today's Iran Airforce is just a flying museum....

Keano 12-14-2017 03:35 PM

Re: Important: Iran and Russia Closer to Su-30 Deal
 
Oh wow interesting. Man you know so much details about these stuff. My knowledge of armies and military supplies is minimal!

Ali_Europe 12-14-2017 05:09 PM

Re: Important: Iran and Russia Closer to Su-30 Deal
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Keano (Post 481123)
Oh wow interesting. Man you know so much details about these stuff. My knowledge of armies and military supplies is minimal!

I think right now the defence issue is very important for Iran and Iranians, no matter if a person likes or dislikes the current political conditions in Iran. It is about Iran's long therm safety and strategical interessts in very critical times.. since some foreign powers like USA really want to destabilize any country which is not their puppet, every independent nation in middle east must be very carefull and prepared...

Specially since Wesley Clark and other people warned of new Pentagon plans for future middle east, defence stategies will be very important for countries like Iran(just need to see what CIA & MI-5 and Saudis did to countries like Lybia or Syria...

This map is what some Neocons want the middle east to look like:



In case of Iran following problems must be discussed.

1) step by step democratization: Dictatorships are easier to destabilize by enemies..more real demoracy unite a nation

2) improving the situation of minorities and create more regional federalism instead of ignoring local problems. It is important that minorities like Kurds, Azeris or Belutschis see that their problems or demands are not ignored.that would make it hard for USA or Israelis to create and fabricate any separatism inside aIran. CIA, Mossad and MI-5 have a long history to create tnsions inside a country

3) having a well organized army and a domestic defence industry which needs to be able to at least cover 70-80% of the weapons for the own armed forces...being too dependent on foreign countries in defence sector is a big risk

dariush-44 12-14-2017 05:49 PM

Re: Important: Iran and Russia Closer to Su-30 Deal
 
I have not followed closely enough, tho seeing the recent tensions, I'm afraid of what this crazy US administration has in store for the world. They never fail to surprise.

Building a coalition for war with Iran will only require Israel and Saudi Arabia apparantly: http://www.cnn.com/2017/12/14/politi...els/index.html

Ali_Europe 12-15-2017 08:25 AM

Re: Important: Iran and Russia Closer to Su-30 Deal
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by dariush-44 (Post 481125)
I have not followed closely enough, tho seeing the recent tensions, I'm afraid of what this crazy US administration has in store for the world. They never fail to surprise.

Building a coalition for war with Iran will only require Israel and Saudi Arabia apparantly: http://www.cnn.com/2017/12/14/politi...els/index.html

well, Dariush jan...destabilization of middle east is a long time politics of Western powers, Trump just continues like Bush & Clinton etc... until USA would lose its role as an Imperial power, Independent nations in Region must be ready... I believe USA will soon or later face the same destiny as the British empire and lose its power, but that can still take a while(Sure USA has huge debts and one day their ecconomy will lose the competition to China, but at least for next 10-15 years they might try to force their conditions on Independent nations) specially since USA is afraid of China's power, they want to Keep control over strategical regions like middle east... Since the IRAQ and Afghanistan ground invasion ended to a failure, USA has changed their tactic..

the new strategy is since Lybia visible:

a) sanctions and pressure on Independent nations
b) supporting Separatist movements or fanatic groups for proxy wars (Kurdish separatism or the proxy war in Syria)
c) using countries like Saudi Arabia to do the dirty work for them (like current situation in Yemen)
d) or even direct air attacks by NATO or Israel to destroy important facilities or support their bodies on ground (Israeli airforce often attack Targets in Lebanon etc and US-Airforce also was close to get into Syria, but Russian intervention changed the game too fast in Syria)

and since Isarael and Saudis also want a weaker IRAN, for IRAN a very well prepared defence doctrine is a must..

Even I myself am not a big fan of IRI, but in today current situation I think we have to support any thing which improve IRAN's defence capabilities or unity among Iranians (Different ethnic groups in Iran Need also to be good informed that USA/NATO might try to use them for creating separatism Problems)

As I said before, IRAN's government must be forced by population to start with more democratization and reforms from inside. I even prefer a democratization it in slow and carefull steps, so USA/NATO/Israel wouldn't be able to create a chaos like in Syria..but it very important that some Kind of real democratization to be started to prevent tensions among IRANIANS or opening option for separatism or domestic conflicts.
But of course improving the defence capacities is a must and should have the highest priority... A big mistake of IRI was to ignore army for years in favour of IRGC for decades, now they start to realize the importance of Air Force and NAVY quite late (since sanctions make it today hard to get fast Access to advanced weapons for airforce and NAVY). At least one good move of last decades was to create a strong IRAN's missile industry and improving the SAM and radar capacity (so purchasing of S-300 and Projects like Bavar and RAAD have really created a solid ground based defence). But the weakest links are today
the airforce and Navy..specially the airforce will have a key role in combination with ground based SAMS to protect IRAN's sky from potential sudden wave of attacks!

I agree with current head of defence forces that Saudi or Shah's Model of buying by spending billions is not a smart option(since you would be too dependent any by any sanctions your defence capability suffers a lot.. Therefore production inside Iran is a must... But as a first step for Access to Technology I think a license production of a solid 4th or 4.5 th Generation fighter would be a very good start. Iran seems to focus on SU-30MK (since Russians aren't ready to share with Technology Transfer on their Superfighter SU-57 or SU-35).. The best remaining options for IRAN would be SU-30 or MIG-35..I myself would prefer Mig-35 cuz Iranian technician have already experiences with Mig-29 and it would be easier to focus on a similar Plattform, also if IRAN would be ready to make some Investment a 3d vector thrust version of Mig-35 could be a huge benefit for IRAN. but to be honest I would be ok with SU-30 too(cuz it is solid and robust fighter jet and in combination with IRAN's SAM Units it would be a big improvement comparing to today flying Museum)

But if Iran and Russia couldn't fnd an agreement than I would go for a licens production of a newer Chinese jet in a larger numbers at least 200-300 Units

Here are some Pictures for those who aren't familiar with Military aviation


SU 57 = 5th generation fighter (Russia would never agree to let any nation produce this fighter in license, it is the direct competitor of F-22 and for understandable strategical reasons no information of Technology of this fighter would be shared with Iran or other nations before 2030). Only India has been able to have Access to some Technologies, since there will be an Indian version with Indian avionics and weapons (Russians only agreed, since the huge costs made a Partner indispensable. But Russians might agree to just "sell" some 30-40 Units to IRAN after 2028 since their own airforce has the priority and they are already waiting (which Iran wouldn't agree, since for IRAN a production inside IRAN and acces to blueprints is a must)
Also I have doubts if IRAN industry would right now be capable to produce this jet in a fast and efficient way..



SU-35 = 4.5 Generation fighter (also a superb fighter which is a competitor of F-35 or Eurofighter, also a Technology transfer and license production wouldn't be agreed by Russians, since this is currently their top fighter till SU-57 would join the service). So no option for IRAN



So that means IRAN will have following remainig options with their PRO and CONS
(And remember cuz of UN-Sanctions any solutiuon couldn't be deliverd or produced before 2020)

SU-30: Solid, Robust fighter, very solid weapon Systems and radar. it is comparable to newest versions of F-18 and F-15 (which are in service in US-NAVY or Israelis airforce)
PRO: Solid, very capable, multifunctional, a good solution for next 10 years, a good Plattform for future IRAN's upgrade or reverse engineering..Also IRAN could before starting the production buy or rent some 30-40 Units for the priority improving of current defence till some 140-160 Units would be finished inside IRAN

CON: 4th Generation fighter, very conventional, so for next 10 years solid solution but if you use this Plattform for future own develeopments, any own creation on this platform would remain a 4th or max a 4.5 Generation fighter jet




MIG-35: what I would have Chosen if possible..Robust solid 4.5 Generation light fighter
PRO: very good radar and if you would be ready to invest versions with vector thrust would be possible.. a key Technology for improving dog fights capacities or Shorter take off distances Similarities to Mig-29 would make it for IRANIAN technicians easier



And finally if there would not be possible to sign any contract with Russians, following Chinese solution could be an alternative

Pro: solid weapons, cheap Price, easy to upgrade CON: 4th Generation

bsedighi 12-24-2017 05:05 PM

Re: Important: Iran and Russia Closer to Su-30 Deal
 
Really! avoid the imperialist of USA and join alianiace with Russia! Because, they have bigger war planes than USA!
Dosteh mohtaram- our issues in Iran and most places inMiddle east is lack of education, destruction of our resources namely water, forests and wetlands to name a few.
Wasting money on building defence is not going to help our farmers Kurdestan, and other areas. Who are we building our defense for USA, I don't think so KSA, I doubt it they just don't have enough ground troops to sustain a long term stuff.
Russia is no better than USA my dear friend. For Iran to have a future they must stop this non sense system and take steps towards democracy so that they can start thinking about building the severely neglected infrastructure.

Ali_Europe 12-25-2017 06:51 AM

Re: Important: Iran and Russia Closer to Su-30 Deal
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bsedighi (Post 481150)
Really! avoid the imperialist of USA and join alianiace with Russia! Because, they have bigger war planes than USA!
Dosteh mohtaram- our issues in Iran and most places inMiddle east is lack of education, destruction of our resources namely water, forests and wetlands to name a few.
Wasting money on building defence is not going to help our farmers Kurdestan, and other areas. Who are we building our defense for USA, I don't think so KSA, I doubt it they just don't have enough ground troops to sustain a long term stuff.
Russia is no better than USA my dear friend. For Iran to have a future they must stop this non sense system and take steps towards democracy so that they can start thinking about building the severely neglected infrastructure.

If you read my comments, you would realize that I have also criticized Russians in some points.. but right now USA are the biggest danger to middle east, while Russians and Chinese dont have any ecconomical and strategical interessts to invade or destabilze nations in middle east(in case of Syria, Russians even helped Iran to prevent those CIA-Saudi-made groups like ISIS to turn Syria to 3-4 smaller nations).. And if you focus on my text, you will see that I always said any industrial cooperation with Russia and China should base on producing the fighter jets inside Iran and not just buying weapons like Saudis....I never said Russians or Chinese would be angles...all nations have own ecconomical and strategical interessts.. but as an independent nation which oppose global expansion and militarism of USA..Iran has common strategical interessts with countries like Russia, China, Cuba etc...cuz all those nations know USA is trying to destabilze and challenge them(CIA was involved in Ukraine tensions, CIA and Saudis are involved in fabrication of muslim terror in Russia and China etc...We dont need to be best friends with Russia or China, but in opposing Nato-militarism and USA-SAUDI-ISRAEL-alliance there are lot of similarities in strategical and national interessts of Iran and countries like China, Russia, Cuba, Bolivia etc... But Iran doesnt need to be anyone's puppet like Saudis or egypt.. Iran has to focus on long therm interessts of iranian people and Iran's ecconomy. Most independent nations have similar interessts. In the region of middle east, central Asia and caucasiathe major interessts are very clear:
A) opposing militarism of USA, Nato, Israel
B)keeping the huge wealth from oil and gas inside the region and prevent the money to disapear in western banks and stocks of western corporates
C) more cooperation and trade among nations in the region and good trade relations with BRICS countries like Russia,China, India etc
D) reforms and democratization inside Iran
E) stronger defence capabilities to prevent foreign invasions or proxy wars

And by the way spending money on building up a capable domestic defence industry would even help those poor farmers in Kurdestan, Khorasan, Balutchestan etc ..cuz without a strong defence you would allow CIA, Mossad and MI-5 to start with balkanization of Iran very soon...And I think we would agree poor people in Lybia or Afghanistan, Syria or Iraq dont live better after Nato-Invasions and proxy wars. Stability is the first step to create wealth and education. How can you fight poverty if you face foreign invasions, proxy wars, organized terror etc...

Maybe Iran would even in future need to buy some hightech weapons to make it possible for Iran's armed forces to keep up to date, but the bbackbone and at least 80-85% of Iran's defence need must be produced inside Iran(Wars of past has proven than you are lost if you are strongly dependent on others)

Doosze Aziz, lot of problems you mentioned correctly(lack of education, poverty, religious fanatism etc) are direct results of Western interventions in middle east... just for the record... Iran had in 1953, years before Spain or Portugal, a democratic govenment..who has destroy democracy in Iran by Operation Ajax? In Iraq Qasim wanted in early 60's more social Justice and better life conditions for poor people... who were the foreign planers of the 1963-64 regime changes in Iraq.. who send their troops in 1950's to egypt as Nasser nationalized Suez chamnel? Who founded Taliban in Afghanistan? Who organized all these wars, regime changes and invasions in middle east in last 100 years?

I'm not a crazy concpiracy theorician..just wstch what former head of Nato, general Wesley Clark himself admits:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Kd6vR1J0_6A

one last thing: there is a big difference between investing in a strong domestic defence industry and just buying weapons..domestic defence industry creates jobs and education inside Iran and is usefull for lot of other civilian sectors..satelite and communication technology, civilian aviation, IT or other industries like engine construction etc also benefit a lot by cooperation with domestic defence industry...

Ali_Europe 12-26-2017 12:03 PM

Re: Important: Iran and Russia Closer to Su-30 Deal
 
And I want to add one last thing..The fact that I strongly criticize USA and often mention the importance of strong armed forces and a domestic defence industry doesnt mean that I would support the current government. Most older IK-Members like Jashar know very well that in past I often have criticized both Shah and IRI... strategical and geopolitical issuses are today too inmportant to be ignored, no matter what type of political ideology someone would support.. today middle east faces challenges that can destroy entire nations..so I think every honest Iranian, no matter if nationalist or real socialist or a libertarian or even a moderat religious would agree that we have to focus on Iran's and regions long therm strategical, ecconomical and stability interessts... right now after Afghanistan, Iraq, Lybia, Syria, Yemen etc the biggest dangers are very clear visible

bsedighi 12-30-2017 10:06 PM

Re: Important: Iran and Russia Closer to Su-30 Deal
 
اقاى على عزيز
مشكل ايران امريكا انگليس و اين و ان نيست. مشكل تنبللى بى عرضگى مظلوم پسندى چاپلوسى اين مردم است. مردم ما خرافاتى و معتاد به خرافات و معتاد به هزار نوع مواد مخدره هستند. اين مردم محتاج هستند معلم داشته باشند محتاج پدر مادر هايى با شرافت و با علم هستند. اقاى محترم از چه ما ميخواهيم دفاع بكنيم ؟ نفت؟ ايكاش نفت نداشتيم اما يك ذره همت داشتيم.
شوروى با ايران قرارداد جمع و دفن زباله هاى اتمى دارد كه عملا ترتيب جد و ابادمان را ميدهد ايا داشتن انرژى اتمى برا ايرانى كه بسيارى ديگر منابع بدون درد سر تر دارد جايز است؟ نه اقا. جاى تعريف نيست اما در مساثل مربوط به انرژى بطور عام و برق و خورشيدى
ايا با دو تا جنگنده كه از شوروى بخريم جلوى انگليس و امريكا ميتوانيم بايستيم. The utopian mentality is far from reality though in a democratic society there is no issue with having such dreams, howeve it is premature. Have been to Russia years ago, and there was no true happiness Ali agha.
لطفا توجه كنيد:
وقتى حقيقت را نتوانى بگويى
ازادى حقيقت نيست

بايد اينكه ما مظلوم واقع شديم و در نتيجه ما را چاپيدند و نگذاشتندوو را كنار گذاشت و با قدرت قدرت علم تحصيلات جلو رفت شرف داشت. مطمن باشيد امريكا حق سوثد فنلاند وو را نميتواند بخورد و موشكى هم نه دارند نه ميخواهد بخرند اما روشنفكر تا بخواهيد دارند و اين مهم ترين اسلحه است
اسلحه دانش اسلحه علم
When our system infrastructure is aged beyond repairs (electrical grid is unsafe and not functional 40% of the time) our wetlands have disappeared, lack of proper water saving measures has led our resources dangerously low where it is estimated we would be facing drinking water shortage within 10 years and irrigation sooner- we should be thinking seriously about our future and what we need to focus on.

Ali_Europe 01-04-2018 01:49 PM

Re: Important: Iran and Russia Closer to Su-30 Deal
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bsedighi (Post 481160)
اقاى على عزيز
مشكل ايران امريكا انگليس و اين و ان نيست
.

I disagree... in our entire history of the last 100 years foreign powers like USA and England HAVE changed again and again the direction of our development.. without Operation Ajax in 1953 Iran would be a Democracy 23 years before Spain.. in a way IRI, Revolution etc are all results or reactions to change of natural Evolution of our country by foreign powers.. and USA and UK still Keep destabilizing the Region... just since 1990's we had several foreign invasions, CIA false flag etc... and today middle east is a huge mess

Quote:

Originally Posted by bsedighi (Post 481160)
. مشكل تنبللى بى عرضگى مظلوم پسندى چاپلوسى اين مردم است. مردم ما خرافاتى و معتاد به خرافات و معتاد به هزار نوع مواد مخدره هستند. اين مردم محتاج هستند معلم داشته باشند محتاج پدر مادر هايى با شرافت و با علم هستند. اقاى محترم از چه ما ميخواهيم دفاع بكنيم ؟ نفت؟ ايكاش نفت نداشتيم اما يك ذره همت داشتيم.
.

let analyze the facts..culture of chaploosi or mozakrafat is a direct result of lack of education ... which is caused by lack of wealth and Democracy! who has again and again prevented Democracy to grow in third wold? who again and again caused Regime changes..who were responsible for destroying democracy in Chile 1973, Iran in 1953, I can bring you o many examples from south america, africa and middle east, how foreign powers prevent the wealth of those nations to be used for the local people..middle east is today probally in worst situation, cuz USA and some of their allies are afraid of grows of new global players like China, Russia or Brics countries, so USA and some western nstions want to keep the control over strategical energy recourses in middle east to be able to put pressure on potential new powers... ..middle east is since Lawrence of Arabia suffering year by year more under foreign interventions and as you see again and again foreign powers (specially USA and UK) are the major reason of backwardness in our region..calling the foreign powers as the root of problems of course doesn't mean that I would justify local dictators...

Quote:

Originally Posted by bsedighi (Post 481160)
شوروى با ايران قرارداد جمع و دفن زباله هاى اتمى دارد كه عملا ترتيب جد و ابادمان را ميدهد ايا داشتن انرژى اتمى برا ايرانى كه بسيارى ديگر منابع بدون درد سر تر دارد جايز است؟ نه اقا. جاى تعريف نيست اما در مساثل مربوط به انرژى بطور عام و برق و خورشيدى
.

Iran Needs all possible technologies.. I'm also not a big fan of nuclear reactors, but I think it is important for IRAN to have acces to the Technology and have the know how ...once you have the know how than you can decide if you want build more reactors or you prefer more solar powerplants... I even think Iran should in future, maybe in time after IRI, even keep the idea of possesing WMD's alive as long countries like Pakistan or Israel have nuclear weapons... you can't disarm all people around yourself and than walk around as the only person with machine guns and RPG7

Quote:

Originally Posted by bsedighi (Post 481160)
ايا با دو تا جنگنده كه از شوروى بخريم جلوى انگليس و امريكا ميتوانيم بايستي.
.

I nevere said just pay and buy...I said sign contracts to produce russian or chinese fighter jets inside IRAN...And yes with some 300-350 modern fighter jets in combination with big number of SAMs and radars on the ground you can make it very hard for any agressor to attack IRAN... If an agressor like USA or Israel would know that attacking IRAN by air might cause them losing 150-200 fighter jets, you can be 100% sure that atack wouldn't at all happen...Vietnamese airforce and airdefence shot down huge number of US-planes (with smart using of Russian SAMS and a small number of jets) remind you, back then Vietnam was't even able to produce weapns... Iran today produces lot of different types of weapons..a defending force has some Advantages, since the air battle would happen over your own territory and terrain, while the enemy has to fly long distance over your ground with fuel limitation and facing SAMS,radars and jets... Iran made good Progress in improving SAMs but in aviation Technology IRAN is far behind, so in this sector Investment and license production of Russian or Chinese fighter jets could be a starting point to create an iranian aviation and aerospace industry

Quote:

Originally Posted by bsedighi (Post 481160)
The utopian mentality is far from reality though in a democratic society there is no issue with having such dreams, howeve it is premature. Have been to Russia years ago, and there was no true happiness Ali agha.
لطفا توجه كنيد:
وقتى حقيقت را نتوانى بگويى
ازادى حقيقت نيست.

Democracy can only survive if stability and sovereignty are already there... Else foreign powers can easiely destroy the Democracy... just look around the world,.. Chile had in 1973 a democratic government, which was easiely removed by CIA.... after fall of soviet unions, CIA took Advantage of weakness of Russia, lot of Dollars been spent on destabilizing Russia and Caucasus... Russia was about to fall apart... Look at so many other countries in third world... if you aren't strong, united, stable and Independent there would be no chance for Democracy to be Born... a plant can't grow in desert....

Quote:

Originally Posted by bsedighi (Post 481160)
بايد اينكه ما مظلوم واقع شديم و در نتيجه ما را چاپيدند و نگذاشتندوو را كنار گذاشت و با قدرت قدرت علم تحصيلات جلو رفت شرف داشت. مطمن باشيد امريكا حق سوثد فنلاند وو را نميتواند بخورد و موشكى هم نه دارند نه ميخواهد بخرند اما روشنفكر تا بخواهيد دارند و اين مهم ترين اسلحه است
اسلحه دانش اسلحه علم .

several european nations themselves were colonialists or have benefit from colonialism...but USA is the dominant power and Europeans often had to shot up and Keep silence... And one major reason that Europe isn't under pressure like middle east ist because unlike middle east there are no strategical ground natural resources in europe... But because of natural resources like oil, natural gas, gold etc countries in middle east and Africa will again and again under US-interventions...And by the way, even in european Democracies US-Force is often dominating..try to write an article in a newspaper in Gemany, Sweden or Finnland and criticize Israel, often it would been censored... Didn't you see how easiely USA forced the democratic Switzerland to give up their bank secert and even pay huge penalties to USA... majority of Germans are against US-troops and bases in Germany, can they vote against that?

Quote:

Originally Posted by bsedighi (Post 481160)
When our system infrastructure is aged beyond repairs (electrical grid is unsafe and not functional 40% of the time) our wetlands have disappeared, lack of proper water saving measures has led our resources dangerously low where it is estimated we would be facing drinking water shortage within 10 years and irrigation sooner- we should be thinking seriously about our future and what we need to focus on.

domestic defence industry or a strong amry wouldn't stop IRAN from having functional infrastructure... lack of Democracy and corruption inside and sanctions from outside are the main reasons for those negative trends... so if you want more money for infrastructure and education than you have to fight against corruption,dictatorship and sanctions, but please don't join those forces, which wish to weaken our armed forces and defence industry.. when it Comes to defence industry and armed forces it is not a political or ideological question...for long therm strategical interessts of IRAN as an Independent sovereign nation stability and strong defence capabilities are a must....


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