Irankicks Football Talk

Irankicks Football Talk (http://www.irankicks.com/ikboard/index.php)
-   Coach's Corner (http://www.irankicks.com/ikboard/forumdisplay.php?f=13)
-   -   Important: Iran and Russia Closer to Su-30 Deal (http://www.irankicks.com/ikboard/showthread.php?t=50473)

Ali_Europe 12-13-2017 07:20 AM

Important: Iran and Russia Closer to Su-30 Deal
 
MOSCOW (Reuters) - Iranian Defence Minister Amir Hatami plans to visit Russia soon, the RIA news agency reported on Friday, citing a source at the Iranian defense ministry.
He is expected to hold talks with Russian Defence Minister Sergei Shoigu, RIA reported.
There are rumors that a major goal of the trip is to revive Su-30 negotiations. The original plan was to produce Su-30 in IRAN.
This would be very good news to improve IRAN's defence capacity, since Iran Airforce have suffered a lot cuz of sanctions.... and if the deal would be signed, it would be opening the doors for starting a professional aviation industry in IRAN..so as first country in middle east Iran would be able to produce instead of just buying and by each sanction have fighter jets to be grounded!
Iran defence minister is soon traveling to moscow for further talks








Keano 12-13-2017 03:25 PM

Re: Important: Iran and Russia Closer to Su-30 Deal
 
Damn, Russia will be making big $$$. I wonder how they compare to the likes of American F-22, F-35 etc. on a head-to-head basis.

Ali_Europe 12-13-2017 06:04 PM

Re: Important: Iran and Russia Closer to Su-30 Deal
 
Stealth is overrated(at least if you are the defending force)...newer radars in combination with good trained airforce pilots and modern SAMs can build a good defence shield....SU-30 matches Iran's current needs.. Iran Air force doesnt need to win an air battle over atlantic ocean...Iran Air force could benefit from a defence position, using smartly the landscape character + smart positioning of lot of mobile SAM and radar units + a decent number of solid fighter jets with well trained pilots(Iran is a large country with different landscapes and enemy forces are forced to fly long missions and have to return back home over long distances, means it is important to make an attacking enemy pilot face as many problems as possible: interceptors,SAMs and limited fuel over long distances) . SURE Iran Airforce doesnt have the power to beat USA or Russia in a hardcore air battle, but the good combination of a solid Airforce and ground defence forces and smart defence tactics can cause potential attackers to lose some 80-120 fighters..if the enemy knows that they might lose some 100 jets, they would not even think about any attack(such Defence Shield is possible if Iran would be well prepared).Russia was also ready to offer Iran SU-57 after year 2025, a Top jet which is equal and even better than F-35 but Iran is not ready to just spend huge amount of money and just buy a product and being dependent on Russians for years. Iran wants a technology transfer(thats Iran's main condition and if there wouldnt be an agreement Iran might switch to a chinese jet) production inside Iran is Iran's first priority.. Thats the reason for long talks cuz Russians wouldnt be ready to allow strategical technological secrets of Su-57 or even SU-35 get to foreign nations. So the SU-30 deal would be a compromise in therm of performance but a very wise decision, cuz lessons from past shows that “selling oil and just buy“ Strategy like Shah did in 1970's or today Saudis is not a smart long therm choice... SU-30 is solid fighter and is a good plattform fo Iran's own future domestic programs... sadly cuz of the sanctions Russia wouldnt be able to deliver before 2020....hopefully Iran wouldn't waste time by waiting and at least use the next 2 years for pilot training and building the facilities on the ground... so let hope the talks would deliver some good results...if not Iran must as soon as possible talk to Chinese aviation companies, cuz time is running and Airforce is right now Iran's weakest link in case of any foreign attack...last few years Iran improve the radars and SAM units, now Iran must focus on Airforce before it is to late(middle east is very unsafe and some foreign powers like USA really want to weaken Iran). Iran defence forces must be prepared and problems like the aging fleet must soon be solved, cuz today's Iran Airforce is just a flying museum....

Keano 12-14-2017 03:35 PM

Re: Important: Iran and Russia Closer to Su-30 Deal
 
Oh wow interesting. Man you know so much details about these stuff. My knowledge of armies and military supplies is minimal!

Ali_Europe 12-14-2017 05:09 PM

Re: Important: Iran and Russia Closer to Su-30 Deal
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Keano (Post 481123)
Oh wow interesting. Man you know so much details about these stuff. My knowledge of armies and military supplies is minimal!

I think right now the defence issue is very important for Iran and Iranians, no matter if a person likes or dislikes the current political conditions in Iran. It is about Iran's long therm safety and strategical interessts in very critical times.. since some foreign powers like USA really want to destabilize any country which is not their puppet, every independent nation in middle east must be very carefull and prepared...

Specially since Wesley Clark and other people warned of new Pentagon plans for future middle east, defence stategies will be very important for countries like Iran(just need to see what CIA & MI-5 and Saudis did to countries like Lybia or Syria...

This map is what some Neocons want the middle east to look like:



In case of Iran following problems must be discussed.

1) step by step democratization: Dictatorships are easier to destabilize by enemies..more real demoracy unite a nation

2) improving the situation of minorities and create more regional federalism instead of ignoring local problems. It is important that minorities like Kurds, Azeris or Belutschis see that their problems or demands are not ignored.that would make it hard for USA or Israelis to create and fabricate any separatism inside aIran. CIA, Mossad and MI-5 have a long history to create tnsions inside a country

3) having a well organized army and a domestic defence industry which needs to be able to at least cover 70-80% of the weapons for the own armed forces...being too dependent on foreign countries in defence sector is a big risk

dariush-44 12-14-2017 05:49 PM

Re: Important: Iran and Russia Closer to Su-30 Deal
 
I have not followed closely enough, tho seeing the recent tensions, I'm afraid of what this crazy US administration has in store for the world. They never fail to surprise.

Building a coalition for war with Iran will only require Israel and Saudi Arabia apparantly: http://www.cnn.com/2017/12/14/politi...els/index.html

Ali_Europe 12-15-2017 08:25 AM

Re: Important: Iran and Russia Closer to Su-30 Deal
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by dariush-44 (Post 481125)
I have not followed closely enough, tho seeing the recent tensions, I'm afraid of what this crazy US administration has in store for the world. They never fail to surprise.

Building a coalition for war with Iran will only require Israel and Saudi Arabia apparantly: http://www.cnn.com/2017/12/14/politi...els/index.html

well, Dariush jan...destabilization of middle east is a long time politics of Western powers, Trump just continues like Bush & Clinton etc... until USA would lose its role as an Imperial power, Independent nations in Region must be ready... I believe USA will soon or later face the same destiny as the British empire and lose its power, but that can still take a while(Sure USA has huge debts and one day their ecconomy will lose the competition to China, but at least for next 10-15 years they might try to force their conditions on Independent nations) specially since USA is afraid of China's power, they want to Keep control over strategical regions like middle east... Since the IRAQ and Afghanistan ground invasion ended to a failure, USA has changed their tactic..

the new strategy is since Lybia visible:

a) sanctions and pressure on Independent nations
b) supporting Separatist movements or fanatic groups for proxy wars (Kurdish separatism or the proxy war in Syria)
c) using countries like Saudi Arabia to do the dirty work for them (like current situation in Yemen)
d) or even direct air attacks by NATO or Israel to destroy important facilities or support their bodies on ground (Israeli airforce often attack Targets in Lebanon etc and US-Airforce also was close to get into Syria, but Russian intervention changed the game too fast in Syria)

and since Isarael and Saudis also want a weaker IRAN, for IRAN a very well prepared defence doctrine is a must..

Even I myself am not a big fan of IRI, but in today current situation I think we have to support any thing which improve IRAN's defence capabilities or unity among Iranians (Different ethnic groups in Iran Need also to be good informed that USA/NATO might try to use them for creating separatism Problems)

As I said before, IRAN's government must be forced by population to start with more democratization and reforms from inside. I even prefer a democratization it in slow and carefull steps, so USA/NATO/Israel wouldn't be able to create a chaos like in Syria..but it very important that some Kind of real democratization to be started to prevent tensions among IRANIANS or opening option for separatism or domestic conflicts.
But of course improving the defence capacities is a must and should have the highest priority... A big mistake of IRI was to ignore army for years in favour of IRGC for decades, now they start to realize the importance of Air Force and NAVY quite late (since sanctions make it today hard to get fast Access to advanced weapons for airforce and NAVY). At least one good move of last decades was to create a strong IRAN's missile industry and improving the SAM and radar capacity (so purchasing of S-300 and Projects like Bavar and RAAD have really created a solid ground based defence). But the weakest links are today
the airforce and Navy..specially the airforce will have a key role in combination with ground based SAMS to protect IRAN's sky from potential sudden wave of attacks!

I agree with current head of defence forces that Saudi or Shah's Model of buying by spending billions is not a smart option(since you would be too dependent any by any sanctions your defence capability suffers a lot.. Therefore production inside Iran is a must... But as a first step for Access to Technology I think a license production of a solid 4th or 4.5 th Generation fighter would be a very good start. Iran seems to focus on SU-30MK (since Russians aren't ready to share with Technology Transfer on their Superfighter SU-57 or SU-35).. The best remaining options for IRAN would be SU-30 or MIG-35..I myself would prefer Mig-35 cuz Iranian technician have already experiences with Mig-29 and it would be easier to focus on a similar Plattform, also if IRAN would be ready to make some Investment a 3d vector thrust version of Mig-35 could be a huge benefit for IRAN. but to be honest I would be ok with SU-30 too(cuz it is solid and robust fighter jet and in combination with IRAN's SAM Units it would be a big improvement comparing to today flying Museum)

But if Iran and Russia couldn't fnd an agreement than I would go for a licens production of a newer Chinese jet in a larger numbers at least 200-300 Units

Here are some Pictures for those who aren't familiar with Military aviation


SU 57 = 5th generation fighter (Russia would never agree to let any nation produce this fighter in license, it is the direct competitor of F-22 and for understandable strategical reasons no information of Technology of this fighter would be shared with Iran or other nations before 2030). Only India has been able to have Access to some Technologies, since there will be an Indian version with Indian avionics and weapons (Russians only agreed, since the huge costs made a Partner indispensable. But Russians might agree to just "sell" some 30-40 Units to IRAN after 2028 since their own airforce has the priority and they are already waiting (which Iran wouldn't agree, since for IRAN a production inside IRAN and acces to blueprints is a must)
Also I have doubts if IRAN industry would right now be capable to produce this jet in a fast and efficient way..



SU-35 = 4.5 Generation fighter (also a superb fighter which is a competitor of F-35 or Eurofighter, also a Technology transfer and license production wouldn't be agreed by Russians, since this is currently their top fighter till SU-57 would join the service). So no option for IRAN



So that means IRAN will have following remainig options with their PRO and CONS
(And remember cuz of UN-Sanctions any solutiuon couldn't be deliverd or produced before 2020)

SU-30: Solid, Robust fighter, very solid weapon Systems and radar. it is comparable to newest versions of F-18 and F-15 (which are in service in US-NAVY or Israelis airforce)
PRO: Solid, very capable, multifunctional, a good solution for next 10 years, a good Plattform for future IRAN's upgrade or reverse engineering..Also IRAN could before starting the production buy or rent some 30-40 Units for the priority improving of current defence till some 140-160 Units would be finished inside IRAN

CON: 4th Generation fighter, very conventional, so for next 10 years solid solution but if you use this Plattform for future own develeopments, any own creation on this platform would remain a 4th or max a 4.5 Generation fighter jet




MIG-35: what I would have Chosen if possible..Robust solid 4.5 Generation light fighter
PRO: very good radar and if you would be ready to invest versions with vector thrust would be possible.. a key Technology for improving dog fights capacities or Shorter take off distances Similarities to Mig-29 would make it for IRANIAN technicians easier



And finally if there would not be possible to sign any contract with Russians, following Chinese solution could be an alternative

Pro: solid weapons, cheap Price, easy to upgrade CON: 4th Generation

bsedighi 12-24-2017 05:05 PM

Re: Important: Iran and Russia Closer to Su-30 Deal
 
Really! avoid the imperialist of USA and join alianiace with Russia! Because, they have bigger war planes than USA!
Dosteh mohtaram- our issues in Iran and most places inMiddle east is lack of education, destruction of our resources namely water, forests and wetlands to name a few.
Wasting money on building defence is not going to help our farmers Kurdestan, and other areas. Who are we building our defense for USA, I don't think so KSA, I doubt it they just don't have enough ground troops to sustain a long term stuff.
Russia is no better than USA my dear friend. For Iran to have a future they must stop this non sense system and take steps towards democracy so that they can start thinking about building the severely neglected infrastructure.

Ali_Europe 12-25-2017 06:51 AM

Re: Important: Iran and Russia Closer to Su-30 Deal
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bsedighi (Post 481150)
Really! avoid the imperialist of USA and join alianiace with Russia! Because, they have bigger war planes than USA!
Dosteh mohtaram- our issues in Iran and most places inMiddle east is lack of education, destruction of our resources namely water, forests and wetlands to name a few.
Wasting money on building defence is not going to help our farmers Kurdestan, and other areas. Who are we building our defense for USA, I don't think so KSA, I doubt it they just don't have enough ground troops to sustain a long term stuff.
Russia is no better than USA my dear friend. For Iran to have a future they must stop this non sense system and take steps towards democracy so that they can start thinking about building the severely neglected infrastructure.

If you read my comments, you would realize that I have also criticized Russians in some points.. but right now USA are the biggest danger to middle east, while Russians and Chinese dont have any ecconomical and strategical interessts to invade or destabilze nations in middle east(in case of Syria, Russians even helped Iran to prevent those CIA-Saudi-made groups like ISIS to turn Syria to 3-4 smaller nations).. And if you focus on my text, you will see that I always said any industrial cooperation with Russia and China should base on producing the fighter jets inside Iran and not just buying weapons like Saudis....I never said Russians or Chinese would be angles...all nations have own ecconomical and strategical interessts.. but as an independent nation which oppose global expansion and militarism of USA..Iran has common strategical interessts with countries like Russia, China, Cuba etc...cuz all those nations know USA is trying to destabilze and challenge them(CIA was involved in Ukraine tensions, CIA and Saudis are involved in fabrication of muslim terror in Russia and China etc...We dont need to be best friends with Russia or China, but in opposing Nato-militarism and USA-SAUDI-ISRAEL-alliance there are lot of similarities in strategical and national interessts of Iran and countries like China, Russia, Cuba, Bolivia etc... But Iran doesnt need to be anyone's puppet like Saudis or egypt.. Iran has to focus on long therm interessts of iranian people and Iran's ecconomy. Most independent nations have similar interessts. In the region of middle east, central Asia and caucasiathe major interessts are very clear:
A) opposing militarism of USA, Nato, Israel
B)keeping the huge wealth from oil and gas inside the region and prevent the money to disapear in western banks and stocks of western corporates
C) more cooperation and trade among nations in the region and good trade relations with BRICS countries like Russia,China, India etc
D) reforms and democratization inside Iran
E) stronger defence capabilities to prevent foreign invasions or proxy wars

And by the way spending money on building up a capable domestic defence industry would even help those poor farmers in Kurdestan, Khorasan, Balutchestan etc ..cuz without a strong defence you would allow CIA, Mossad and MI-5 to start with balkanization of Iran very soon...And I think we would agree poor people in Lybia or Afghanistan, Syria or Iraq dont live better after Nato-Invasions and proxy wars. Stability is the first step to create wealth and education. How can you fight poverty if you face foreign invasions, proxy wars, organized terror etc...

Maybe Iran would even in future need to buy some hightech weapons to make it possible for Iran's armed forces to keep up to date, but the bbackbone and at least 80-85% of Iran's defence need must be produced inside Iran(Wars of past has proven than you are lost if you are strongly dependent on others)

Doosze Aziz, lot of problems you mentioned correctly(lack of education, poverty, religious fanatism etc) are direct results of Western interventions in middle east... just for the record... Iran had in 1953, years before Spain or Portugal, a democratic govenment..who has destroy democracy in Iran by Operation Ajax? In Iraq Qasim wanted in early 60's more social Justice and better life conditions for poor people... who were the foreign planers of the 1963-64 regime changes in Iraq.. who send their troops in 1950's to egypt as Nasser nationalized Suez chamnel? Who founded Taliban in Afghanistan? Who organized all these wars, regime changes and invasions in middle east in last 100 years?

I'm not a crazy concpiracy theorician..just wstch what former head of Nato, general Wesley Clark himself admits:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Kd6vR1J0_6A

one last thing: there is a big difference between investing in a strong domestic defence industry and just buying weapons..domestic defence industry creates jobs and education inside Iran and is usefull for lot of other civilian sectors..satelite and communication technology, civilian aviation, IT or other industries like engine construction etc also benefit a lot by cooperation with domestic defence industry...

Ali_Europe 12-26-2017 12:03 PM

Re: Important: Iran and Russia Closer to Su-30 Deal
 
And I want to add one last thing..The fact that I strongly criticize USA and often mention the importance of strong armed forces and a domestic defence industry doesnt mean that I would support the current government. Most older IK-Members like Jashar know very well that in past I often have criticized both Shah and IRI... strategical and geopolitical issuses are today too inmportant to be ignored, no matter what type of political ideology someone would support.. today middle east faces challenges that can destroy entire nations..so I think every honest Iranian, no matter if nationalist or real socialist or a libertarian or even a moderat religious would agree that we have to focus on Iran's and regions long therm strategical, ecconomical and stability interessts... right now after Afghanistan, Iraq, Lybia, Syria, Yemen etc the biggest dangers are very clear visible


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:32 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright @ 2007 Irankicks.com