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-   -   The Historical Backdrop to Iran, Morocco, Spain and Portugal (http://www.irankicks.com/ikboard/showthread.php?t=50493)

Farooq 04-25-2018 02:28 PM

The Historical Backdrop to Iran, Morocco, Spain and Portugal
 
I'm a big fan of Total War Game Series which allows you to simulate battle among different factions in European Medieval History. One such faction is the Ottoman Empire and another is the Spanish Empire.

What is interesting about this time period or 1300-1500, is that as the Ottomans were advancing deeper into Europe, the MoorishCaliphate was retreating at about the same time.

This makes any military war historian wonder what would have happened of the Osmani Turks had gone to Spain or for that matter the Safavids?

I guess now we can find out on the soccer pitch. Good luck Iran.

Farooq 04-25-2018 02:35 PM

Re: The Historical Backdrop to Iran, Morocco, Spain and Portugal
 
Also, I watch a lot of Liga 1 action ever since Nekounam joined Osasuna. Maybe its time to call him up for the Spain game? I've never seen anyone be able to to dominate both Real Madrid and Barcelona in the midfield. Osasuna was usually the match that decided who would win La Liga. A strong physical presence could beat Spain, which is predominate;y made up of players from Barca and Madrid.

Spain have a very skillful but small team. The only way we could match them in skill would be to give all the positions to our forwards. We actually have many good ones at this point. I count Jahanbaksch, Azmoun, Ansarifard, Goochi, Goodos, Dejagah, Shojei, Taremi and even more. We should make the whole team out of them if we are going to match them in skill. Just tell them to defend. Maybe Nekounam and Teymourian in the middle to make them fear going near the goal.

Possible lineup

Beitashour-Pooladi-Nekounam--Hajsafi
---Dejagah-Jahanbaschk--Shojei--
Azmoun---Ansarifard--Taremi

Ali_Europe 05-02-2018 05:33 AM

Re: The Historical Backdrop to Iran, Morocco, Spain and Portugal
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Farooq (Post 481336)
I'm a big fan of Total War Game Series which allows you to simulate battle among different factions in European Medieval History. One such faction is the Ottoman Empire and another is the Spanish Empire.

What is interesting about this time period or 1300-1500, is that as the Ottomans were advancing deeper into Europe, the MoorishCaliphate was retreating at about the same time.

This makes any military war historian wonder what would have happened of the Osmani Turks had gone to Spain or for that matter the Safavids?

I guess now we can find out on the soccer pitch. Good luck Iran.

Farooq jan, very interesting topic
Actually when it comes to history, western sources are not always neutral..they often tend to glorify western history and make other cultures look backward
We all know lot of eastern cultures like Persia,China,India etc had a history of long glory and even while in Europe during medieval times they burned women cuz they believed they would be witches, in some regions like Iran, egypt, China, India etc. science,art etc was on a very high level.. Chinese already knew compass or gunpowder centuries before Western cultures.. In Iran, some middle eastern regions and India the knowledge of mathematics or astronomy was years ahead in comparison to West.. Iranians already knew the famous Pascal's triangle few centuries before Pascale was even born(which you would rarely hear in western history books) or the fact that books of Avicenna (Ibn sina) were used in european schools till 17th century to teach medicin (while avicenna died 1037 in Hamadan)
But the major question lot of people ask is how than strong and prospering nations like China, Iran or Othoman empire weaken, while West start to rise… Well sure in history there are always rise and fall of every empire depending on ecconomical and geopolitical conditions and we all know about up and downs of ancient cultures like Egypt Babylon, Persian empire, Greek roman as result of wars or economical conditions etc… but what happen after medieval had a very special and unique aspect…Before we had rise and fall of empires all over the world but after that Western and specially west european powers suddenly rised to a global domination… so the question might be, how that could happen, did Westerners suddenly turn to superior humans, like specially some Westerners like to make others to believe and Hollywood make us believe by their junk crappy movies?

Well the reasons are obvious, if you would analyze by facts and without emotions or national pride..

During medieval times , west heaviely lost influence after losing the crusades.. the dominance of middle eastern armies prevented any Western invasion and the silk road which was back then the most important economical global connection line of trade was hugly under the control of eastern nations…lot of items like silk or safran etc were so expensive that some westeuropean parts has to pay lot of money to even cover their basic needs that forced some Western countries to try to find an alternative route to Asia…

And the turning point was the sudden appearing of Americas…just imagine the impact of that! suddenly some western powers had an acces to a huge continent full of resources and wealth and with a quite weak local resistence…(so suddenly they could steal huge amount of gold, silver, etc without even need to pay any cent, they just could kill the natives or use them as slaves and there was no real resistence) which was impossible if they would have try to chose the route through Turkey or Persia (Before conquering of americas middle east was just like a huge wall in front of western forces and any trade with East was under middle eastern control... But sudden discovery of Americas changed the world history in an unbelievable way...this made some Western nations like Portugal and Spain and later England and France being able to rise to big global player… huge naval fleet and huge wealth was the key to a sudden rise … and once Britain and France were global players, they were able to start colonialization and domination of trade routes and exploiting the colonies, West could climb up very fast as if it under normal circumstances would be possible… And east started to lose on influence and what after happened and continues till today is known to all of us...

Till today some western nations like USA, UK still use their military to project power and exploit other nations(and ionce you are a global power, systems like capitalism work in your favour)… you can control the prices of resources like gold, silver, coffee, crude, etc in a global scale!!! But the good news is that times are about to change. expansion of capitalism and Globalization and urbanization makes it harder and harder for imperial powers to dominate… social unjustice has made revoultions or fall of pro western puppet governments continue....people in several third world countires are aware of the unjustice and it is harder to manipulate or trick people... wars in Iraq, Lybia etc backfired and will end to disaster and at same time new powers like Russia,China, India, etc are rising and will in long therm resist a western domination… so we might in few decades go back to conditions before conquering of Americas…which means we would not any more have a dominant West…And this is the reason why USA and their allies are very nervous and keep continue with their fals flag operations, cuz closer global cooperation and a growing number of independent nations in long therm would make economies like USA and UK lose their dominance…If your wealth is based on exploiting and dominating others, you will fall once you can't any more dominate...

by the way one more thing(this one is for thoes who like Iran's history)! since you seem to be quite interessted in history.. I suggest you to watch the following documentaries... unlike lot of western movies which always celebrate sudden success of alexander etc.. this documentary shows very well, that Persia was even during later time a very powerfull nation... it is about conflict between Perisa and Rome (very interssting, after 15:30 it is start to be about Iran & Rome)

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x42uyeu

Farooq 05-02-2018 01:20 PM

Re: The Historical Backdrop to Iran, Morocco, Spain and Portugal
 
I like your points but not sure exactly what has caused the changes you speak of. I did study world history but even the best wold historian dont really know. Jared Diamond wrote a book n the topic which has been largely criticized by now, I personally think much of it was internal reforms taking place in the west that never happened. The geographic factor was also present but what was the real cause? Commercial banking advantages and join stock corporations seems to be a much more important factor in my opinion. As you said, history was written by the winners, so we dont even know a lot about Eurasia during this time compared to what we know about Europe.

Then the industrial revolution happened in England in the 1800s which really made the gap in Eurasia the largest ever by 1900. Although the gap is coming down, I still see European or Western technology and commercial power leading the world.

However, during the 7-15th century none of this was going on. The Ottomans were advancing in Europe and while the Moors were loosing ground in Spain. Ottomans were heavily persianized Seljuk turks. Only changes were military, with the Spanish army adapting the most during this time. So I though this would be interesting during the world cup, considering 3/4 countries are neighbors.

Ali_Europe 05-15-2018 08:32 AM

Re: The Historical Backdrop to Iran, Morocco, Spain and Portugal
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Farooq (Post 481342)
I like your points but not sure exactly what has caused the changes you speak of. I did study world history but even the best wold historian dont really know. Jared Diamond wrote a book n the topic which has been largely criticized by now, I personally think much of it was internal reforms taking place in the west that never happened. The geographic factor was also present but what was the real cause? Commercial banking advantages and join stock corporations seems to be a much more important factor in my opinion. As you said, history was written by the winners, so we dont even know a lot about Eurasia during this time compared to what we know about Europe.

Then the industrial revolution happened in England in the 1800s which really made the gap in Eurasia the largest ever by 1900. Although the gap is coming down, I still see European or Western technology and commercial power leading the world.

However, during the 7-15th century none of this was going on. The Ottomans were advancing in Europe and while the Moors were loosing ground in Spain. Ottomans were heavily persianized Seljuk turks. Only changes were military, with the Spanish army adapting the most during this time. So I though this would be interesting during the world cup, considering 3/4 countries are neighbors.

Farooq jan
Sure industrial revolution started in 1800’s , but before it could start, some circumstances needed to be ready for it to be possible to happen… And without exploring and huge exploiting of the Americas western powers couldn’t win the race… Just the fact that industrial revolution happened in England, which was one of the top colonial power is a clear prove… countries like Germany or Italy had lot of scientist like Keppler or Galileo Galilei etc.. but industrial revolution started in the nation with biggest colonial fleet and largest colonial empire in those times…..
Very often in western books they claim that brilliancy of people like George Stephenson was the base of industrial revolution and they tell the school children stories of how Brits observed the steam coming out of a tea kettle and suddenly had the genius idea of a steam machine…

Reality is pretty different, hundred of years people around the globe observed steam by cooking, but ideas usually are born and can turn to reality, if the circumstances are ready… there were lot of genius people in times of ancient Egyptians, Greeks, romans and other ancient cultures and I'm sure lot of them observed the sky, but nobody had the idea of building a space station…

Smart people can be found in every culture and continent…just few examples from our own country: if you remember that Avicenna (Ibn Sina from 9th century) wrote medical books which were used in Europe till 17th century, or Khayam made astronomical calculations which were till 19th century the most exact calendar calculation or Persian astronomer Al-Sufi , a guy from the times before telescop age, found out that Andromeda can’t be a star and called it a small astronomical cloud (later in telescop time it was possible to prove Andromeda is a galaxy) etc…

But any type of industrialization or greater civilization in the history often begin once wealth , power and stability is better than in other regions and a real demand is combined with some sort of wealth to pay for those demands or the possiblity of exporting (in case of being close or dominating to trade routes)!
And as history proves, before exploration of Americas, Western dominance never was global…
Exploration of Americas made later colonialism possible and powerfull coloniual economies created circumstances which made a fast industrialization possible…

But as you mentioned the gap is shrinking and new factors start to create new powers… factors like larger young population with improving education, globalization etc in Eurasia and aging societis in West or outsourcing of jobs have started a new round of changes, which will probally in few decades end the dominance of Western powers

Farooq 05-15-2018 07:09 PM

Re: The Historical Backdrop to Iran, Morocco, Spain and Portugal
 
Hi Ali,

I think you are making some excellent points. Unfortunately, world historians are rather uncommon compared to historians with specialized interests. As a result, western intellectuals still have few experts with the breadth that could really answer these questions. For example, Jared Diamond tried to explain some of the factors for western dominance in Guns, Germs and Steel but his theory has been widely seen as full of holes.

I also think western colonialism of the Americas probably played an important role but I'm not yet ready to say it was a decisive role for western dominance. Here is some interesting tid bits that shape my reasoning.

Although the European colonial powers such as Spain and England took a lot of gold and silver from the Americas, they faced a huge trade deficit with China because they had nothing else to trade with them for Chinese goods. The opium war which the British forced Chinese to accept opium imports is an example of this problem.

Elizabeth of England and many western intellectuals were interested in the occult sciences and satanic religions. John Gee was her court astrologer and he is the legend in the occult community. Themes of Satanism is very prominent behind the scenes as the influence for the enlightenment, which eventually led to founding of the United States, the greatest experiment in enlightenment thought at the time, which was found by, you guessed it, Satanic Freemasons such as Ben Franklin.

Lastly, the slave trade was actually orchestrated by Jews. A lot of sources state that the first slave traders in the Americas were Portuguese and Spanish Jews. Without the slave and cotton trade, the rise of the US from a backwater to a superpower would not have happened so quickly because their entire economy was based on slavery.

Sherwin 05-23-2018 10:57 AM

Re: The Historical Backdrop to Iran, Morocco, Spain and Portugal
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Farooq (Post 481337)
Also, I watch a lot of Liga 1 action ever since Nekounam joined Osasuna. Maybe its time to call him up for the Spain game? I've never seen anyone be able to to dominate both Real Madrid and Barcelona in the midfield. Osasuna was usually the match that decided who would win La Liga. A strong physical presence could beat Spain, which is predominate;y made up of players from Barca and Madrid.

Spain have a very skillful but small team. The only way we could match them in skill would be to give all the positions to our forwards. We actually have many good ones at this point. I count Jahanbaksch, Azmoun, Ansarifard, Goochi, Goodos, Dejagah, Shojei, Taremi and even more. We should make the whole team out of them if we are going to match them in skill. Just tell them to defend. Maybe Nekounam and Teymourian in the middle to make them fear going near the goal.

Possible lineup

Beitashour-Pooladi-Nekounam--Hajsafi
---Dejagah-Jahanbaschk--Shojei--
Azmoun---Ansarifard--Taremi

I agree that we have a lot of skilled players and I like the guys you mentioned: Jahanbaksh, Gucci,Azmoun, Ansarifad, Gucci Degjageh Tameri however if you tell Iran to defend vs Spain for 90 minutes, we are going to lose. Iran need to play defense but they also need to pick their spot and hit Spain with the counter attack. If you let them play Tika Tika we are going to get smashed. We have to also hold onto the ball when we get possession.

First thing is first we need to focus on beating a very capable Morocco team who also has a good defense and plenty of Euro based players. Also did Nekounam get selected for the final roster what is his age? Anyways against Spain and Portugal at some point we have to pick our spots and go for it, we can't just park the bus for 90 minutes vs those two teams.

Farooq 05-27-2018 03:04 AM

Re: The Historical Backdrop to Iran, Morocco, Spain and Portugal
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sherwin (Post 481356)
I agree that we have a lot of skilled players and I like the guys you mentioned: Jahanbaksh, Gucci,Azmoun, Ansarifad, Gucci Degjageh Tameri however if you tell Iran to defend vs Spain for 90 minutes, we are going to lose. Iran need to play defense but they also need to pick their spot and hit Spain with the counter attack. If you let them play Tika Tika we are going to get smashed. We have to also hold onto the ball when we get possession.

First thing is first we need to focus on beating a very capable Morocco team who also has a good defense and plenty of Euro based players. Also did Nekounam get selected for the final roster what is his age? Anyways against Spain and Portugal at some point we have to pick our spots and go for it, we can't just park the bus for 90 minutes vs those two teams.

I hate Sergio Ramos. That prick. Somebody needs to teach that cunt a lesson. Lets get five players to tackle from every side.

Sherwin 05-28-2018 04:46 PM

Re: The Historical Backdrop to Iran, Morocco, Spain and Portugal
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Farooq (Post 481363)
I hate Sergio Ramos. That prick. Somebody needs to teach that cunt a lesson. Lets get five players to tackle from every side.

Oh dude everyone was calling Sergio Ramos, he tried to give Salah a hug, acting all innocent. Dude is a dirty bastard but the initial reports say he could be out 2-3 weeks, he MIGHT make it back in time. Next year, I think a healthy Bayern with Neuer will get them.. I hope Die Mannschaft beats Spain, most likely Semi Finals battle, not only so my mom and I are happy(her country btw)but I don't want that bastard to win the World Cup. Side note got my Team Melli adidas, Die Mannscahft and Russia kits for WC lol, got to represent. I gave you a rep because I really agree with you, lmao:up:

Farooq 05-29-2018 01:28 AM

Re: The Historical Backdrop to Iran, Morocco, Spain and Portugal
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sherwin (Post 481367)
Oh dude everyone was calling Sergio Ramos, he tried to give Salah a hug, acting all innocent. Dude is a dirty bastard but the initial reports say he could be out 2-3 weeks, he MIGHT make it back in time. Next year, I think a healthy Bayern with Neuer will get them.. I hope Die Mannschaft beats Spain, most likely Semi Finals battle, not only so my mom and I are happy(her country btw)but I don't want that bastard to win the World Cup. Side note got my Team Melli adidas, Die Mannscahft and Russia kits for WC lol, got to represent. I gave you a rep because I really agree with you, lmao:up:

We need Iran to knock him out. No need for Der Mannschaft.


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